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== '''Headline text''' ==
<big>'''Tl;dr version of the below: <span style="color:green">Don't edit this page unless you have something to contribute about ''what'' the SBR said. We don't care if you disagree with them or tiers in general; that's for the [[Forum:Index|forums]].</span></big>'''
 
 
'''We understand that tiers are a point of contention among members of the Smash community. However, this page discusses the tier-lists that the Smash Back Room (for Melee and Brawl) and the GameFAQs forums (for the original) have posted. These are accepted by almost every high level player and as such are important and notable content to this wiki. Discussion on this talk page should be limited to the content of the page, not a debate on the existence or ordering of tiers. Those should both be addressed in the Forums ([[Forum:The Tier List, version 3|Forum for Brawl]], [[Forum:New Tier List|forum for Melee]]). {{clear}}
 
 
==Inaccuracy==
 
 
I looked ad the Brawl tier list and noticed that it is not correct. wario is not 7th, he is 3rd, so diddy kong is not 3rd. King dedede is 6th, not 8th. etc.
 
[[User:Kirby0h0|Kirby0h0]] ([[User talk:Kirby0h0|talk]]) 03:12, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
 
:There's an update. [[Special:Contributions/98.117.158.220|98.117.158.220]] 03:12, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
 
::The update was made today. <span style="border:2px outset blue;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 03:37, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
i wish people KNEW what a tier is i know they are real but i still don't like the melee tier but that does'nt mean i don't believe it also im the guy who said the floor glitch is real but hard to do it's about 60% of the time i fail. {{unsigned|67.70.21.80}}
 
:Please don't make an account if this is going to be indicative of the quality of the posting you do with it. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 02:13, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
I can beat a LV. 9 Meta Knight with Ganondorf. And I did a CPU Vs. CPU with Kirby Lv. 3 Vs. Meta Knight Lv. 9, and Sonic Lv. 3 Vs. Meta Knight Lv. 9, and Sonic and Kirby won. Thus I really don't think Meta Knight should be so high and Sonic and Kirby should be higher.
 
:Did you have items on or something? In any case, you need more than three tests to prove your theory. Furthermore, you haven't supplied any proof of this feat. Finally, you haven't specified how they won, or even any other points of why MK shouldn't be as high. In any case, comments like these don't belong here. Please read the message at the top of the page. <choose><option><span style="color:red;">[[User:Mr. Anon|Mr.]]</span> <span style="color:green;">[[User talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</span> <span style="color:blue;">[[Special:Contributions/Mr. Anon|teh awsome]]</span></option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Sir]] [[User Talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]] [[Special: Contributions/Mr. Anon| the great]]</option></choose> 02:08, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 
I did not have items on...non...and I did Kirby Lv.1 5 times, then Lv.2 5 times, then Lv. 3 five times and Kirby didn't lose a single time on Lv.3, and same thing for Sonic.
 
:You must be mistaken somehow. I've tried it, and MK never lost. <choose><option><span style="color:red;">[[User:Mr. Anon|Mr.]]</span> <span style="color:green;">[[User talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</span> <span style="color:blue;">[[Special:Contributions/Mr. Anon|teh awsome]]</span></option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Sir]] [[User Talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]] [[Special: Contributions/Mr. Anon| the great]]</option></choose> 03:26, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 
Oh I forgot I did it on battlefield...If that helps...at all...
 
:How did the CPUs win? <choose><option><span style="color:red;">[[User:Mr. Anon|Mr.]]</span> <span style="color:green;">[[User talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</span> <span style="color:blue;">[[Special:Contributions/Mr. Anon|teh awsome]]</span></option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Sir]] [[User Talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]] [[Special: Contributions/Mr. Anon| the great]]</option></choose> 03:32, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 
::All of this is completely irrelevant. CPUs are not programed to fully understand the metagame because they were programed before the metagame existed. Most decent players can beat any Lvl 9 character with any character they choose. Most pros can also beat me with any character they choose. So what? The tier list is designed for when skill is near equal between two ''human'' players. The computer has no idea how to play Meta Knight. [[Smasher:Mew2King|This guy]] knows how to play Meta Knight. Also, from a purely statistical standpoint, a single game is meaningless no matter how it occurred. Any single event can be an anomaly. Even if the circumstances surrounding your example merited discussion about the tier list (they don't), having only a single example provides nothing to say we should change the tier list. Provide 1000 examples, and you start to get somewhere, but they still need to be relevant to the tier list. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 13:14, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== Ok.............. ==
 
 
I Dont see why this tierthing is so controversial, heres my take; the highest tiers arent the best characters, they're just the easiest to master, i mean think about it, Meta Knight is quite clearly easier to master then Ganondorf, but if you take time to master Ganondorf, then Ganondorf can be much better then Meta Knight, just saying.....
 
 
I know what you mean. I can't kill crap with meta knight but i use Ganondorf as an alternate.[[File:MG4.png|50px]][[User:EvilGRAHAM 0|<b><span style="color: Red">EvilGRAHAM 0</span></b>]]<sup>[[User talk:EvilGRAHAM 0|Mmmm Free Goo!]]</sup> 02:48, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
A tier list is basically peoples opinions of characters from different games. I do think that tiers don't exist and people should play whoever they main in order to win. Like some [[Wario (SSBB)|Wario]] mains actually beat Meta Knight and [[Lengendary Pikachu]] beating a Meta Knight in teams. I also play [[Dr. Mario (SSBM)|Doc]] a lot better than [[Fox (SSBM)| Fox]] in Melee. {{unsigned|64.252.147.155|00:13, April 17, 2010 (UTC)}}
 
:If you think tiers don't exist, [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|read this]]. Oh, and that last phrase you added (that has been removed) is often grounds for blocking. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 00:20, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
If you think tiers exist, than go watch NEO, Taj, or Gimpyfish and you will see that Tiers don't exist. GET PWNED BY THE DOC KING!!!!!
 
 
Doc King, talk pages are for talking about problems with the article itself not about the the subject of the article, that's what the forums are for. [[User:4DJONG|4DJONG]] ([[User talk:4DJONG|talk]])
 
 
Sorry, I will stop talking about my opinions and rather talk about improving articles like this one ([[Special:Contributions/64.252.134.129|64.252.134.129]] 19:50, May 17, 2010 (UTC))
 
 
== Clarifying info ==
 
 
In most peoples' experiences, tier plays little role in the overall outcome of the match, especially when a player is obviously more skilled than the competition. Tiers are simply a rating based on the winning consistency and potential one character has in the overall understanding of the game thus far. This is only touched in the anti-tier arguments, but this is also supporting of the concept of tier and should be mentioned in the summary. [[Special:Contributions/74.194.224.252|74.194.224.252]] 20:41, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== Balance over the controversy ==
 
 
Both arguments over tiers have a point. Some characters have better attributes than other characters. However, it also takes skill to do well with these characters. As many know, the tier list is not set in stone; it is more of a guideline. It is possible for a player using Ganondorf to beat another player using Meta Knight. A higher tier means that the character has an advantage over another character; it does not mean that a high tier character will always win. If a player has significant skill enough to consistently win with a low tier character, that (drawn from the logic of the tiers) player has more Smashing awesomeness than someone who always wins with a high tier. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Mattbell888|Mattbell888]] ([[User talk:Mattbell888|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mattbell888|contribs]]) 14:59, April 20, 2010 (UTC)</small>
 
:It is made quite clear in this article and [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|the treatise]] that skill matters more than tiers. [[User:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 20:18, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 
::your a dumb shit, it goes by the matchups. and wario WAS 3rd until they found out that he was not THAT good and u mostly see metaknights, snakes, and diddy kongs win tournaments. 1,2,3 and yes he is 3rd {{Unsigned|76.29.165.244}}
 
Remember, no personal attacks, and skill matters more than tiers because, if you are skilled enough with Ganondorf you could beat M2K, when he is playing as Meta Knight. Also the tiers are for the characters that are more easily mastered than other characters, not who is better. [[User:4DJONG]] ([[User talk:4DJONG|talk]])
 
::::Incorrect. The tier list only matters when all characters are mastered. If it was simply based on learning curve then characters such as Olimar would be at the bottom. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 18:02, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
~
 
 
→Reply to Toomai: You stole the words out of my mouth. I completely agree. Olimar would be at the very bottom if it were about how easy a character is to master. There is absolutely no doubt about that. Saying tier lists are based upon how easy the character is to master just flies in the face of facts. Thanks, Toomai.
 
 
-Kyoshi1
 
 
~
 
 
in my opinion Tiers are bullshit, I can agree with the ones higher up on the page that the tiers are not an explanation to the characters performance, but rather how easy they are to play and even master, I main meta knight and I have done so since the game was realesed since I have always liked him, and my second main is ganondorf and I am just as good with both of them, my friend and I play very offten and he mains link, and he haven't played the game half as much as I have, and it's quiet even when we plays he might even win more then I do. and I'm a real veteran on all smash brothers games, I have done my homework I am very good with almost every character in brawl, including zelda and ganonndorf, so why they are on the bottom of the tier list is just not right to be honest, probably becuse the once who did the tier list do not know how to play them, just a thought though considering I know how they shall be played.
 
 
conclusion: some characters are easyer to play yes, but as final verdict teirs are just bullshit thx for me ^^ <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:217.209.40.44|217.209.40.44]] ([[User talk:217.209.40.44|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/217.209.40.44|contribs]]) 07:19, June 13, 2010 (UTC)</small>
 
:Why don't anyone use talk pages for their proper purpose? Didn't you read the notice at top of the page? You also didn't sign your comment. I'm not going to get into an argument about tiers but you saying that characters higher on the tier list are easier to master is false. The Ice Climbers, Olimar, and Lucario are arguably the most difficult characters to play properly. If it really was a measure on how "easy" a character is to play, the characters I mentioned above would not be high tier, Mario would not be low tier and Pit would be top tier if it truly was a measure of this. Just because you are good with a character does not mean the character themselves are good when compared to others. I can play Ganondorf well but does that change the fact that he is the worst character? No, it does not. Sure, I can three stock my brother's Meta Knight with him but just because you can beat up your friends' characters with a bottom tier character doesn't mean they aren't bottom tier. Practically no one's competency list (how good they are with each character) is going to '''exactly''' match the tier list. So just because some people are terrible with Meta Knight or Snake does not mean they aren't the two best characters in the game and just because some people can play Ganondorf exceptionally well does not mean he's not the worst character. Also, how can every character be even when their statistics are not? Now before you post again, read [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this]] and think carefully before your next post. [[User:Omega Tyrant|Omega Tyrant]] [[Image: TyranitarMS.png | 25px]] 08:16, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
to be honest it's quite fun to see what a big deal these tiers have become, it's like teir wars three god, well it matters little, in my opinion tiers do not exist, that is my opinion and that is unlikly to change, and then there are others what beg to differ, ok then you may belive tiers exists, it's kinda lame though but sure, I only wanted to post my opinion before and omega tyrant sends me a link to prove me wrong xD, sorry mate but I use my own thoughts and experince to create my own opinion ^^ so I'll stick to my opinion on that tiers do not exists, it also makes it a bit more fun not to belive in tiers, it makes the game flow on as it should do when you play it with your friends,
 
 
I belive that when someone take a seat infront of the computer and spend hours to create a tier list, it has gone to far, so this is my last post on this place (though it is only my second but thats beside the point =)
 
 
as a nice end, why bother proving eachother wrong on a useless point such as this, god just play the game instead we all have different opinions and thats not going to change, so if you want to play a balanced fighting game play blazblue or sometihng and stop nagging eachothers ass off.
 
 
thx for me once more ^^
 
 
Tiers obviously fuck up how characters are supposed to be played. For example, if Mario is supposed to be a well-balanced character, then why the hell is he in the F tier instead of the C tier. That's why I hate tiers. They fuck up the way characters are supposed to work. Even though I haven't played the game, it's obvious that if trained enough properly, a character in the G tier like Zelda, Link or Ganondorf can beat someone in the S tier like Meta Knight. In short, all characters can be played evenly with some training. --Whackeyeye5 22:05, August 5, 2010 (UTC) <span style="color:red">'''--User was banned for this post'''</span>
 
 
:[[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|Read this.]] [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] 22:08, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== Why ==
 
 
Tiers are the most ridiculous things I have ever seen, characters are determined by skill of the player with these characters, not value. Meta Knight has a learning curve, along with every other character. I don't understand why Snake is so high, you have to consider cons along with pros, not just pros. Why do tiers even exist, who cares if they are incorrect, it takes skill to get good with the characters to take full advantage of them. For a tournament you use your best character, not whoever according to the tier. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:B-52|B-52]] ([[User talk:B-52|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/B-52|contribs]]) 16:40, July 24, 2010</small>
 
 
:First of all sign your posts using <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> Second, read [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this]]. <font face="sand" color="silver">[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="#ff2000">Doctor Pain 99</font>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">C</font>]][[User Talk:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">T</font>]][[Special:Editcount/Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">E</font>]])</font> [[file:dp99.png]] 16:47, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
::And third of all, it says at the top, that type of discussion does not go here. <font face="sand" color="silver">[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="#ff2000">Doctor Pain 99</font>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">C</font>]][[User Talk:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">T</font>]][[Special:Editcount/Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">E</font>]])</font> [[file:dp99.png]] 16:48, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
: Why are Snake and Diddy 2nd and 3rd!? (I use a gamecube controller,so I say game cube controls) Snakes -> B means that he is in helpless posision untul the missle crashes or some one attacks him! and Diddy is third because of his BANANA PEELS!?!? That is...... wow. [[User:Mesuxelf|Mesuxelf]] ([[User talk:Mesuxelf|talk]]) 20:54, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
:Snake and Diddy both have their advantages, and that's truly what matters at this point. Sure, Snake may be relatively slow, and have poor mobility, but on the bright side, he has an incredible recovery for his weight class, and he also is difficult to KO. Combine that with his KO'ing power, and you get a tournament-winning mix. On the other hand, Diddy Kong, in general, is a decent character, but his abuse of banana peels is what makes him stick out from the rest. So, in the long run, they both deserve their spots on the tier list. However, I would agree that some characters are misplaced.
 
 
--ForeverForgotten
 
 
::Talk pages are to be used to discuss matters that pertain to the content of the article, not to discuss what your opinion is of what the article is about. Such matters can be discussed in forums, not on the talk pages. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span>[[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 21:05, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
==Debates about the existance of tiers==
 
People keep on ranting about how tiers don't exist on this page even though it doesn't belong here. It says clearly at the top, yet people keep trolling here. Perhaps we should issue a temp ban on anyone who puts that kind of content on this talk page? <choose><option><span style="color:red;">[[User:Mr. Anon|Mr.]]</span> <span style="color:green;">[[User talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</span> <span style="color:blue;">[[Special:Contributions/Mr. Anon|teh awsome]]</span></option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Sir]] [[User Talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]] [[Special: Contributions/Mr. Anon| the great]]</option></choose> 00:15, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
 
:It's not that big of a deal. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 02:24, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
I don't see the point myself The only thing the list proves is that Snake and Meta Knight are broken .The Corrupted One
 
 
== The images are hard to read ==
 
 
I think it would be better if there were text instead of image thumbnails for the tier list.
 
 
:First of all, sign your comments using <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> Second of all, I can "read" the images fine and i use an iPod, so they dont need to be replaced with text. <font face="sand" color="silver">[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="#ff2000">Doctor Pain 99</font>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">C</font>]][[User Talk:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">T</font>]][[Special:Editcount/Dr. Pain 99|<font color="silver">E</font>]])</font> [[file:dp99.png]] 01:10, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
::If text is used it would be better than if images are used. that what it was like a year ago and it was better then.[[User:Poodoas|Poodoas]] ([[User talk:Poodoas|talk]]) 06:50, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::Images are fine. No need to add text instead. That would make it more dull. Images are easy to "read".--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 06:52, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 
::::How about image and text?[[User:Poodoas|Poodoas]] ([[User talk:Poodoas|talk]]) 07:50, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::Attempting to use text in the current format will give all the cells different sizes. Not good. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] 12:48, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::Bump. A few more users have brought up more complaints about this on IRC. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 04:40, May 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
==Final Smashes and character balance==
 
Evidence on the Dojo shows that Sakurai factored Final Smashes into the balance of some fighters. For example, take Jigglypuff. This is its description as a fighter on the [http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/hidden10.html Dojo]:
 
 
:Jigglypuff has neither a long reach nor a lot of power to its attacks. On top of that, it’s not a particularly fast runner and is extremely easy to KO because of how light it is. At a glance, Jigglypuff seems like an '''utterly flawed character''', but the truth is that Jigglypuff has a '''few abilities that balance things out''', like its superior midair capabilities.
 
 
He specifically states the fact that its weaknesses are (supposed to be) balanced out by "a few abilities". He names its "superior midair capabilities" as one of them.
 
 
:<Down Special Move: Rest> - This is Jigglypuff’s '''other saving grace'''. Unleash Rest on an opponent when you’re overlapping him or her and watch ‘em go flying!
 
 
Another ability, Rest, is described as its "other saving grace". This indicates that, along with its midair capabilities, Rest is another ability that balances its weaknesses.
 
 
:<'''Final Smash: Puff Up'''> - This is Jigglypuff’s '''saving grace number three'''. This move can be devastating if you fire it up in the right spot!
 
 
Puff Up is described as its "saving grace number three" - which shows that it, like Rest, is considered one of the "few abilities that balance things out". This is evidence enough that Jigglypuff's Final Smash was designed with the intent of balancing its flaws, and therefore designed as part of its balance as a fighter in matches. This also shows that Final Smashes are, for some characters at least, "saving graces" that aid in balancing them as fighters. [[User:Mako Shark|Mako Shark]] ([[User talk:Mako Shark|talk]]) 22:39, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
:I agree with both the line of reasoning and the concept. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] 22:53, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
::I wouldn't consider this proof that final smashes were factored in to every character's balance. The only final smash that can be said to be made purposely less effective is the Ice Climbers' final smash per the trophy's description. '''Every''' character's final smash can be considered a "saving grace". Just seeing Sakurai saying Jigglypuff's final smash is one of its saving graces is not enough proof to confirm this. You would have to find evidence that shows that a character's final smash was purposely made less or more effective to balance the character out. The fact that smash balls can be turned off can be considered proof against final smashes being considered into each character's balance. If they were intended to balance the game, why would you give people the option to turn them off? Also, there are many high tier characters that have good final smashes while there are many low tier characters that have poor final smashes. Snake, who is considered the second best character in the game, has what is considered one of the best final smashes. Link on the other hand, is considered the second worst characters, yet also has what is considered one of the worst final smashes.
 
 
::As such, Sakurai simply stating that a character's final smash is one of their "saving graces" is not proof that final smashes were factored into balance as this is the general purpose of final smashes. You would have to find evidence that explicitly states multiple characters' final smashes were purposely made more or less effective than other characters. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 22:58, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
::::Part of your argument is invalid. You cannot use tiers in an argument about game design, as the designers cannot predict or even acknowledge tiers. You also have to remember that the game was designed with items in mind - just because they can be turned off doesn't mean that's what they want you to do so. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] 23:08, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::That may be, but there would have to be evidence that shows that final smashes were purposely made more or less effective to balance the game. As for bringing up the tiers, I often see people use MK as an example as to why final smashes were intended to balance the game. So I brought up two examples to show that a character's tier position is irrelevant to their final smash effectiveness. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 23:15, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::I did say, some characters, not all of them. The fact that Jigglypuff's Final Smash is a definite yes proves that at least one character had their Final Smash incorporated into their balance as a fighter. So, while it's not possible to prove with solid evidence, I'd be willing to bet there are more, particularly in terms of "effectiveness of Final Smash versus agility of character" - the reward versus the likelihood of a given character managing to break a Smash Ball in a hectic match. Anyway, the point is, that's evidence enough for me, and I thought OT might be interested to read it too. I reckon the article flows better without the Final Smash example anyway. [[User:Mako Shark|Mako Shark]] ([[User talk:Mako Shark|talk]]) 00:39, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::::Again, that is not proof that Puff Up was a definite yes to being factor in Jiggypuff's balance. As said before, '''every''' character's final smash is supposed to be a saving grace and they were all designed to be "devastating when fired correctly". Sakurai stating this for Jigglypuff does not mean it is factored into its balance.<s> Also, I don't consider this interesting.</s> <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 00:48, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::<s>Thanks. That makes me feel delightful. I'll definitely put the effort in next time.</s> [[User:Mako Shark|Mako Shark]] ([[User talk:Mako Shark|talk]]) 00:51, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::No, but it's likely that final smashes has ''something'' to do with balance. For example MK has one of the worst Final Smashes, yet Ganon has one of the best. And how is Link's bad, btw? It's long ranged and does a ton of damage. I agree that the tier list won't be completely altered if we let smash balls in tournies, but they have are a factor in character balance. <choose><option><span style="color:red;">[[User:Mr. Anon|Mr.]]</span> <span style="color:green;">[[User talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</span> <span style="color:blue;">[[Special:Contributions/Mr. Anon|teh awsome]]</span></option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Anon]]</option><option>[[User:Mr. Anon|Sir]] [[User Talk:Mr. Anon|Anon]] [[Special: Contributions/Mr. Anon| the great]]</option></choose> 23:03, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
::::Meta Knight's final smash isn't "one of the worst". <font face="Eurostile" size="3">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#00008B">BNK</span>]]</font><sup> <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Special:EditCount/Blue Ninjakoopa|E]]|[[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Blue Ninjakoopa|C]]]</sup> 23:06, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
::::That is just speculation. Actually read what I said and come up with an argument that actually refutes mine instead of saying "no". As for Link's final smash being poor, it only can hit one character and many final smashes cause damage that exceeds 50%, so that is really not a defining factor that gives Link's final smash an edge over others. As for your other statements, it is likely just coincidence that MK has what is consider a poor final smash and Ganondorf has what is considered a great final smash. Like I said, find evidence that explicitly says MK's final smash was purposely made less effective or Ganondorf's was purposely made more effective for your argument to hold weight. Otherwise, you are just speculating and speculation does not belong on the Wiki. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 23:11, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::Link's Final Smash does work on one opponent, but it can hit multiple opponents at once and like BNK, it has very long range. It can also be a OHKO in most cases. [[User:Zeldasmash|<span style="color:forestgreen">Zelda</span>]][[User talk:Zeldasmash|<span style="color:forestgreen">smash</span>]] 00:53, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::Ok, this discussion is over and there is no need to argue over the effectiveness of Link's final smash. However, it is far from being an OHKO. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 00:56, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::::ZS. Know the meaning of a OHKO. It must defeat in ONE hit. Multiple hits are used in the Triforce Slash.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 05:12, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
==Is this serious?==
 
Can somebody post a link or something to the "new" Melee tier list? I'm having a hard time believing it. '''[[User:Kperfekt722|<span style="color:black;">Kperfekt</span>]]''' [[User talk:Kperfekt722|<span style="color:red;"><sup>Talk Is Cheap...</sup></span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Kperfekt722|<span style="color:purple;"><sup>But I Am Not.</sup></span>]] 18:16, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
*MELEE LIVES ON! [http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=286577][[User:Anthony1996|Anthony1996]] ([[User talk:Anthony1996|talk]]) 19:38, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== Melee list ==
 
 
While it is mostly a joke, should the "Gengar tier" at least be noted due to the line
 
 
"GENGAR
 
Gengar (Master Hand and other glitches)"
 
 
simply as a point of reference for glitches? '''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Smoreking</span>]]<small><sup>[[User Talk:Smorekingxg456#Top|<span style="color:#00FF00">(T)</span>]]</sup></small><small><sub> [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|(c)]]</sub></small>''' 21:00, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
:I noted the Gengar tier on the [[List of NTSC tier lists]] page; if you don't think that's enough you could add it here, I don't think it'd be a problem. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Data Node|Data Node]] 21:08, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
Should a new page be made specifically for the new Zelda/Link category?
 
:No.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 23:09, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
==My Eyes!==
 
Mind if we change the tier list colors? The current ones are a little hard on the eyes.
 
[[User:Beecanoe|Beecanoe]] ([[User talk:Beecanoe|talk]]) 22:01, November 12, 2010 (UTC)Beecanoe
 
 
== Fairness of Tier Lists? ==
 
 
I'm not saying that I disagree with the idea of the Tier List, but shouldn't it be based off of the actual abilities of the character, rather than tournament rankings? I mean, it's possible for Ganondorf to win a tournament, despite the odds. I can understand the "likeliness" of tournament winnings, but actual tournament rankings are a bit of a stretch to me.
 
 
--ForeverForgotten
 
(I forgot my password, and my e-mail is screwed up, so... yeah.)
 
 
I seriously could not find Pokemon Trainer on the Brawl Tier List.
 
[[User:Beecanoe|Beecanoe]] ([[User talk:Beecanoe|talk]]) 01:06, May 25, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== Hey!!! ==
 
 
Aren't you guys forgetting about 64? Barely-no one talked about the Smash 64 Tier List. Why would we need one, I mean, come on. Why put Link on the bottom of 64 and Brawl, Why put MK and Fox so high for so many years. MK and Fox (SSBM) are two overly powered characters. You saw Fox get a de-buff in Brawl, correct. Tier Lists are made by a small amount of votes, but not 100's of 1000's of 10,000's of votes. If you tell me, the tier lists are false, and cover up the truth. If people want to measure correctly, they have to ask me, ZeldaFanUltima for ACCURATE information.
 
 
Also, though most people do not understand yet, I found out something that you mistook.
 
 
=== Moon Walk in Brawl ===
 
For real, moon walks ARE in Brawl. With moon walking, Link is better in the game, since he is #1 Moon Walker in Brawl.
 
 
[[Special:Contributions/98.239.59.252|98.239.59.252]] 13:47, August 9, 2011 (UTC)ZeldaFanUltima (SWF)
 
 
==Recent==
 
I think we need the '''Most''' recent Tier Lists. Articles are having clashes because of this. [[User:GunBlazer|GunBlazer]] ([[User talk:GunBlazer|talk]]) 15:44, October 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
Well whatever version, tiers still suck [http://drawntolife.wikia.com/wiki/User:MagicalChez http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5026/9511327106020temp.gif] 00:36, January 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
[[File:Sans-titre.png|right|thumb]] NEW TIER LIST RELEASED! [[User:GunBlazer|GunBlazer]] ([[User talk:GunBlazer|talk]]) 19:55, May 9, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Kyoshi1's tier list ==
 
 
Kyoshi1's tier list is featured on the tier list page, although it should probably be removed. It was removed and then Mr. Anon put it back with this as the reason, "Smashboards doesn't have a monopoly on tier lists. Kyoshi spend a lot of time on this." While it is true that smashboards does not have the monopoly on tier lists, the tier list page specifically makes reference to the SBR and states that it is usually considered the official tier list. This talk page even refers directly to SBR and not other tier lists. The statement that Kyoshi spent a lot of time on the list that was made does not seem to be accurate. A quick glance at the list shows Olimar on there twice for example... I also doubt that Kyoshi's list has been put through the same grueling process as the SBR list and analyzed by a community of smashers (many of which are professional and top professional) rather than one person. If anything Kyoshi's list should be featured on a separate page to recognize that it exists, but not put it up in comparison with the "official" list. There also was a Melee tier list that used to be on the tier list page, but has since been removed. I was told about it by another person, but I never saw how bad it was. This leaves the question of why it was removed, but not Kyoshi's Brawl list.
 
 
No idea. [[User:GunBlazer|GunBlazer]] ([[User talk:GunBlazer|talk]]) 14:03, April 9, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
 
MajinYoshi-
 
I feel the same, I noticed that Olimar was listed twice: once at the top and once at the bottom. The only characters I feel are accurate on that tier list are the mid tier characters. And tiers are completely based on tournament results last time I checked.
 
Cptn Falcon, Charizard, Peach, Ivysaur, Link, Kirby,Falco, Lucario, Sheik, Toon Link and Marth are all WAY off! I don't think guy has actually ever played SSBB. And people who ''actually'' think that Cptn Falcon is good should stop playing against CPUs, wait till they're older than 8 and wise up.
 
 
Olimar #1: W/Pikmin. Olimar#2: W/O Pikmin [[User:GunBlazer|GunBlazer]] ([[User talk:GunBlazer|talk]]) 17:27, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Kyoshi's tier list should be removed or placed on a separate page. His list appears to be made by the contribution of solely himself where as the SBR tier list has contributions from a large variety of smashers who compete on a regular basis. - ([[User:ZAV|ZAV]] ([[User talk:ZAV|talk]]) 00:05, May 8, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
:It's been 10 days and no one posted a dissenting opinion, so I removed the list from the page. It still has its [[Template:Kyoshi1TierList|own page]], though. [[User:Player_03|Player_03]] <sup>[[User talk:Player_03|t]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Player_03|c]]</sub> 14:41, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
::GunBlazer reverted my edit on account of there having been no formal decision. I suppose that's true, and I'm not going to start an edit war over it, but I think alternative lists should be ''excluded'' by default, not included. Especially in cases like this: as stated above, this list isn't nearly as well-researched as the SBR version.
 
::We could perhaps make an "Alternative Tier Lists" section and link to it there, but it should '''not''' be displayed on the same page as the SBR lists. I think Wikipedia's policy applies here: this one is ''objectively'' less notable than the official SBR list, so it ''should'' be given less attention. [[User:Player_03|Player_03]] <sup>[[User talk:Player_03|t]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Player_03|c]]</sub> 15:39, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
It might work, but admins should know about it. [[User:GunBlazer|GunBlazer]] ([[User talk:GunBlazer|talk]]) 17:05, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
:If such a section is to be made, the community would have to agree on who must be in a certain spot so that the tier list receives approval. Anyone who doesn't think of Meta Knight as 1-2 on a tier list and Ganondorf/Link as 36-38 has no clue about the metagame and should not receive the attention when their tier list is half assed. <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px]] 14:30, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Agreed. GunBlazer: We shouldn't need consensus or admin approval to remove this tier list; Kyoshi should have needed approval to post it in the first place. If you still want to seek consensus on this topic, fine, but keep the page as-is until people agree that Kyoshi's list deserves to be in. (And I think we both know what the consensus <s>will be</s> is.) [[User:Player_03|Player_03]] <sup>[[User talk:Player_03|t]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Player_03|c]]</sub> 15:48, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
==deviantArt Tier List==
 
A user made 3 Tier lists on deviantArt, and some of you may agree to it, some, you won't. Well, if you must know, that the user is me, of course. I did find over 2 million people already who agree with me, so who says you can't agree? I rank solely on specialized tournaments, vs outcomes, and all in all, statistics. I think you all can agree. Go here: http://requiem-of-ice.deviantart.com/journal/The-Tier-Lists-v2-0-320647863
 
 
Now, you may think, HUH? Well, I myself am a professional video gamer, and I do not tell any lies, I worked really hard on these tier lists, and please do not hate on me. I put a lot of time into this.
 
 
-Requiem of Ice
 
 
:"I did find over 2 million people already who agree with me"
 
 
:Let's think here for a moment.
 
 
:2 million people.
 
 
:To start, let's visualize how many is "2 million people". [http://www.london2012.com/media-centre/article=million-spectators-visit-the-olympic-park.html About 2 million is about how many people went to the Olympic Park in London 2012]. That is about how many citizens are currently living in FYR Macedonia in South Eastern Europe. This is also about how many people living in Houston, Texas, as well about twice the population of San Jose, California. It is also larger than the population of a variety of countries, such as Qatar, Estonia, and Bahrain. Heck, 2 million is '''forty times''' the population of the Faroe Islands.
 
 
:Now, let's investigate your page. Your list has only 2 pages of comments. This itself is a very generous figure, as the second page consists entirely of one reply. Additionally, except for you, only one other person has responded. So, in all, you have two people behind your cause. You're about one million times smaller than you lead others to believe.
 
 
:And, let's look at the Smash community. SWForums, which has a total of 122,052 members right now. Through basic multiplication, we can assume that AllisBrawl has about 51,585 users. Now, let's think here for a moment. You're saying that you got a group about 16 times larger than the largest Smash Bros. forum in the world and about thirty nine times larger than the largest Brawl community in the world thinks your tier list is better than the official one?
 
 
:Ha!
 
 
:Also, sign your comments.
 
 
:All you have to do is type <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>.
 
 
[[Special:Contributions/65.49.14.82|65.49.14.82]] 00:27, September 1, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== This needs to be updates ==
 
 
I wish the Admins would update this stuff since no one else can because of lock. I mean, that Tier list is years out of date. The 2012 Tier list came out after Apex. Will someone please update this!
 

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