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Forums: Index Watercooler Ideas for new tier list tables

I feel that Marth stay in the higher tiers for 6 reasons: great vertical recovery, good range , ohko final smash in most circumstances , very unpredictable and fast , a mix of quick and strong moves , and for great and useful special moves -- Theo62796

Hey, I`m new here and I been playing Smash Bros Brawl for 16 months now, and so I been reading all your suggestions, and I got some stuff and please don`t say terrible stuff about my suggestion. Anyway, I think Mario should be #24 for his slight power, speed, combos, and range(even though he lost some power, speed, combos, and range from Melee). I`m down due to Mario being ranked #31, and this the lowest out of all the mascots(I`m talking Sonic and Snake). For DK, I think he should be #14 for his great reach, speed(weird for a heavyweight), and power. On the downside, he`s a big target in a fight and lacks a projectile, so that`s bad for ol` DK. -- BowserKoopaFan

As you might have read, we are currently revamping the tier list tables into a very cool new format. Though the others and I have already created an outline, feel free to make your own suggestions here! Just create your own Tier List table and paste it below, then the other admins and I will comment on it. Remember, do not implement your table on the tier list article until the green light is given. We are still in the "research" stage of this, and it may take a while. Bear with us. Mr. Anon (talk) 17:37, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

i think that Peach should be the highest #1, then Zero-Suit Samus should be #2, with Sonic, Lucario, Kirby, King Dedede, Pikachu, & Luigi all being relatively high! as for the lowest it should be Ganondorf! well that's what i think Brawl's Tier list should be like! --WaterKirby1994 (talk) 04:48, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

That is not what I mean. Mr. Anon (talk) 04:52, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

With all due respect everybody, link should be given a bit more credit than he's being given. Sure not the best but near the bottom? Come on people he is a bit better then that- crisgecko

Are you kidding me, WaterKirby1994?! OK, King Dedede should be high (in fact the top character) and same with Kirby, but what the heck! Go check my tier list at the end of this page. You'll find Peach at the bottom of the tier list (second to last) with Lucario in the Very Low tiers. Of course, Pikachu is in the Top tier, but Luigi? He's only in the Middle tier. Ganondorf is way higher than last place (in the Upper tier), and please, Sonic is in the Very Low tier.

By the way, Ganondorf is already the lowest in the real 5th tier list for Brawl.

And Effigy, don't use bad language in your next suggestion!

What did you mean? i thought this was what you wanted! i gave you the 8 best characters in the game, & the worst character! anyway as for Mr. Game&Watch, Donkey Kong, Fox, Falco, Mario, Yoshi & Samus i place them directly below the top 8! --WaterKirby1994 (talk) 05:26, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

You're a fucking moron. Effigy 03:42, July 6, 2011 (EST)

I think that he means he wants you to make a table and then send it so he can see what your table looks like though the research into the tier looks like. --LexingtonChiodos 10:30, July 3, 2011 (USA)

I am not talking about the actual tier list itself. I am merely talking about the formatting. According to some users, the current tier list tables look ugly, just showing the picture of the character. That is why I am proposing that users give me ideas for the formatting. Mr. Anon (talk) 18:51, July 3, 2011 (UTC)


i was thinking of a 3D format. ( oh and im not logged in so hi )

Hmmm..I thought the formatting looked fine, not sure how to make it look more appealing than already :P Aimerstalk 03:09, July 13, 2011 (UTC)

I think the tier lists' pictures for each character should be enlarged, and have the characters' names underneath the picture. Alongside the character's name listed is the matchup average for that character. All these changes may be a bit too much and make the tier list too big so feel free to use one change but not the other. BloodyBoom (talk) 11:17, July 13, 2011 (UTC)


I liked the way the tier list looked... I didnt think it was ugly.. just a tier list.


Here's an idea: leave the old-format tier lists up while you make the new format, then just replace the old when you're done with the new. I keep coming back to check the characters' locations on the lists, and I keep seeing "The tier lists aren't here right now lulz!" It's super-annoying. Is there any particular reason you can't have the old format up while you make the new one? Either way, many thanks to everyone who contributes to the site. You all rock. -D.J.R. (15 July 2011)

EDIT: Well, I feel silly. I found the list of all the tier lists as they've evolved over time - this list includes the most recent tiers for each game. I apologize for my ignorance. Here's the list, if anyone else out there is as blind as I am. (http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_NTSC_tier_lists) -D.J.R. (16 July 2011)

Hmmm... maybe it should be like this: the tier list should have bright colors for the high tiers and dark colors for the low tiers. Also, the tiers should be like this: God, Top, Upper, High, Middle, Low, Bottom and Negligible, each with stars next to them (expect the Negligible tier): seven stars for God: six stars for Top: five stars for Upper: four stars for High: three stars for Middle: two stars for Low: one star for Bottom: and zero stars for Negligible. And like BloodyBoom said, the characters should have their names underneath their picture and their average matchup score for that character. (I'm not logged in so sorry).

And that's my suggestion. Good work on the new format. You're gonna rock at this, Mr. Anon. I'm gonna love you so much. 17:54, July 16, 2011

Honestly, I don't think many people care what the tier list looks like. They only really care if the tier is good, and the good characters are at the top, and bad ones at the bottom.

That being said, Jigglypuff needs to be higher. Jigglypuff isn't the best character, I know that from experience. It's light and easy to kill. You know who else is like that? Mr. Game & Watch. And he was #11 on the last tier. Jigglypuff's moves are also just as or more powerful than Mr. Game & Watch's. The only thing Mr. Game & Watch can do well that Jigglypuff can't is rack up damage, flip sausages and throw oil.

Jigglypuff isn't great, but it isn't the third worst character. Think about it, Mr. Anon. 10:17, July 18, 2011


Quick question about ssb tier lists in general, Mr. Anon- would it be safe to say that tier lists are only pertinent to each characters highest levels of their metagames? Or, simply put, do tier lists matter if you're not a 'pro'? I have spent a LOT of time playing ssbb and put a lot of thought into it, and have come to the conclusion that tier lists should only be used as a guideline, or not taken into consideration at all for any player who is not at the level -or close- to, say, mew2king. Am I wrong?


I'm in agreement with the last guy. Half the "pros" at the smash games like mew2king we have never seen or heard of. On another note, multiple times, I have seen characters positions on the tier list at where they are because of one technique. Such as the Ice Climbers, who are at the A tier because of their chain grabbing potential. Chain grabbing isn't an easy thing to do. I've owned Brawl for almost five years, and I still have trouble with chain grabbing.

i actually beg to differ with his tier list Meta Knight although awesome has several drawbacks, which is why he shouldn't be #1, Peach should be, also as for Diddy Kong & Snake, they like Meta Knight are to highly ranked! Honestly players will always disagree about this stuff, so maybe we should just do away with the Tier List! Like i said Lucario, Luigi & Sonic are to lowly placed! --WaterKirby1994 (talk) 01:04, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

---

I find these formatting suggestions interesting. I will say that I think the new table should have more clearly defined transitions than letters of the alphabet. I still don't know if "green" means middle tier or low tier or what for SSB. I just peg it as middle tier. I think there should be three main categories (high, middle, low) and subcategories for each. Subcategories for high tier would be 1) Meta Knight tier, 2) top tier, 3) high tier (the rest of high tier). Middle can be upper and lower, while bottom should be 1) low, 2) bottom, 3) Ganon. I think each major category should be placed on a different level (thus, "tier"). Names would be helpful, but if you have to choose between the two, pictures are better for quick reference.

Here's a really interesting idea: why not have "stats" for different characters? Each character receives a rating for each stat. The stats would be: 1) Spacing, 2) Approach, 3) Pressure, 4) Recovery, 5) Flexibility, and whatever else I'm forgetting. You get the idea. Including projectiles might also be helpful, but the "Projectile" rating would have to include projectile defense, since certain characters don't need a heavy projectile game to function well (*cough* Meta Knight *cough*). It wouldn't necessarily impact tier placement, but it would be helpful and informative to those of us who don't have time to comb every fighter's description.

Thanks for allowing suggestions, and I hope you come up with something cool!

My thoughts, Kyoshi1

P.S. As long as some people are giving suggestions, I might as well add one: Olimar should move to 5th after Brood's performance at Apex. At the very least, he needs to be considered top tier. I'm sorry, I don't care how good you are at a fighter; if the fighter is not top tier material, it is simply not possible for you to do what Brood did to Mew2King. It's as simple as that.

I think that's fairly reasonable. Oh, and keep Yoshi low tier; he's the guy I use in Low Tier tourneys, and I don't want to lose him! XP (Just kidding; he's probably due to move up to mid-tier anyway. But I'll miss him if he does.)

---

Peach should be in the top tier not MetaKnight, because MK has way to many drawbacks! Why do you guys place MK so high, he's a mid tier smasher! --WaterKirby1994 (talk) 21:19, July 21, 2011 (UTC)


WaterKirby1994, have you seen ANY real tournament match? Because Metaknight's only possible drawbacks are no projectiles and lightweight, but he has so many upsides those are ignored for his tier placement. Peach does not rank well in MLG Tourneys, while MetaKnight is often in top 5 for the rankings of a tournament, if the Metaknight is played well by the user. BloodyBoom (talk) 11:17, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Actually MetaKnight has several drawbacks, his recovery move completely changes his controls, thus leaving him vulnerable, & his moveset is difficult to control! --WaterKirby1994 (talk) 02:43, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

Actually learn what a tier list is, before sprouting foolish foolishness that relates to your lies. MegaTron1XDD 03:05, July 23, 2011 (UTC)
Hmm ...since when is a difficult to control moveset an indication of a bad character? ZSS is one of the most difficult to control characters, and you ranked her at #2 ...I've been playing this game for years and I STILL have trouble using ZSS - and Olimar, who is even more difficult to control, is my main, while Yoshi, who is almost as difficult to control, is my second! As Olimar and Lucario demonstrate, being difficult to control has no impact upon how good a character is.

Regarding Meta Knight's recovery ...really? You do know that Meta Knight can recover with ALL FOUR of his B moves, right? And that he has additional hops and can glide? And that his "changed controls" give him an unpunishable move of unreasonable priority? And that his "whorenado," which has transcendent priority, is tied with Pit's up-B for having the highest vertical distance in the game? Not to mention the fact that it's fast and covers some nice horizontal distance too. Meta Knight literally has more options for recovery than any other character in any Super Smash Brothers game ever made. His recovery is actually listed as one of his greatest strengths, not weaknesses. This, among other reasons, is why M2K can stay alive at 200+% with Meta Knight against top-level players like Ninjalink. Unpredictable recovery with great range is one of Meta Knight's strongest assets.

-Kyoshi1

~

I think Link should be higher, because people aren't really playing as the MAIN CHARACTER, i.e. Link. Link should be 2nd Tier on SSB64, 1st Tier on SSBM, and 1st on SSBB (No one but me knows MK sucks). Link is flexible, fast, strong, GWP*, and has an FS that kills. (Unlike the rest)

No one knows how powerful Link is, so put him on high tiers.

There should be stat cards, cards I make for character stats.

Honest, there is a sixth tier list for Brawl! I'm sooooooooooooooo true, there is one, honest! Go to the other Smash wiki site (Smashwiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki) and see for yourself! You'll find a sixth tier list on that page! I'm really telling the truth, honest, HONEST! If it was fake all along, I'm sorry, Mr. Anon. I didn't know that was really not the official tier list, and if it is fake, I will erase the sixth tier list I made above in my suggestion. Sorry for any trouble I caused, so could you please forgive me, Mr. Anon? July 25, 2011, 20:53

ATTENTION: There IS a 6th version of the tier list released by BBR. The link is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306431

You're welcome,

Kyoshi1

~

EDIT: Hi there, again, I'm the one who made the sixth tier list up there and the sentence [above Kyoshi's comment -Kyoshi1]. Anyway, this really isn't about the way it looks, I think it's the place that the characters should be in. My favorite character in Brawl is King Dedede, I really think he should be #1 on the tier list. He has dropped a space or two on each tier list and I really want him in the top spot. He has some powerful attacks, good recovery, the fastest falling speed in the game, and an awesome final smash. For Diddy Kong, he should really be in #2 (the sixth tier list for Brawl said he was #2). I don't know why he should be, but this wiki said his great things that got him in the high tiers are his bananas, his recovery and his peanut popgun. Kirby should be #3, Snake should be #4, Wario should be #5 and Mr. Game & Watch should be #6. Ganondorf should be in the high tiers as well. I know that he has very sluggish moves and very poor recovery, but what his powerful moves? Of course he was 10th in Melee's current tier list, why should he be last on Brawl's current tier list. As well as this, Jigglypuff isn't the worst character in Brawl, I know she suffered a large nerf, but think about it: here lightness, her sing attack and her famous Bridge of Edlin glitch. This should be reasons why she should be in the high tiers. Meta Knight should be in the low tiers because he doesn't have any strong attacks, and I don't think anyone should risk using his recovery. Donkey Kong should be back in the high tiers again like the first tier list of Brawl, and Pikachu should be #7 because he has an awesome down special: his Thunder blot. R.O.B. should be #8 as well because he's my fourth favorite character in Brawl. Of course, Bowser should be in a higher position because he has some powerful attacks. Think about the places, Mr. Anon. July 26, 10:21

Final smashes are banned, Ganondorf can be assaulted way too easily, and same with Bowser. Dedede's general sluggish attacks make it hard for him to put good shield pressure or avoid it. This Forum is also about what the Tier List looks like, so this post will not affect the placings.BloodyBoom (talk) 12:35, July 30, 2011 (UTC)
Okay, forget about his final smash, but King Dedede has his hammer and it's super-powerful. And he doesn't have sluggish attacks! That's why he should be the top character.

First, sing your comments with ~ ~ ~ ~, second, ANYONE, BUT SMASH BOARDS DECIDE THE CHARACTERS POSITIONS ON THE TIER LIST, if you beat a top tier with a bottom/middle, Congratulations!, but there were tournaments, were professional smashers fight with a character, the character´s position are chossen by the metagame of all characters and counters...and sorry for my bad english201.164.216.99 00:19, July 24, 2011 (UTC) (No acount) Everyone fucking sucks shit who made this shit

-Allied

Shouldn't Sonic be in the top tier? Even if he is lightweight, he's still a balanced character. --C. Coleman 23:00, September 4, 2011 (UTC)Totaldramacale

Power Tier List (Tentative; Formerly "Suggestion 1")

Note: I am suggesting an idea down here (responding to Mr. Anon). This is not the real tier list, just a tier list that I think it should be for the seventh tier list. The page were you put in suggestions now requires you to log in, I won't do that, so I had no choice but to put it down here (Note that this is for Brawl). Don't erase this, I won't block you, but it's best to leave this alone (I'll erase this if many people don't agree on this).

EDIT: To get more positive reviews, I've switched Captain Falcon and Snake's positions. Captain Falcon is now higher and I've swapped Link and Jigglypuff's places. And could I have lots of reviews (anyone including Mr. Anon) soon, please. You can comment on this if you want, and could I have lots of them very soon, please?

EDIT: And yes, this is a power tier list. [Note from Kyoshi1: Thanks, I'll change the title as the tier list gets refined.]

Peach should be champion! [Note from Kyoshi1: I'm taking a wild guess and assuming that the above one-line comment is from WaterKirby. Is this correct?]

EDIT: I have made some changes to the tier list below. More will come soon!

EDIT: Just like Kyoshi1 did, Nolimar is included in this tier list. [Note from Kyoshi1: AWESOME.]

What the next Brawl tier list should be like.
God Top High
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
Icon-kingdedede Icon-charizard Icon-captainfalcon Icon-metaknight Icon-olimar Icon-peach Icon-ivysaur Icon-link Icon-snake Icon-zerosuitsamus Icon-kirby Icon-fox Icon-mrgame&watch Icon-diddykong
Middle
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
Icon-falco Icon-pikachu Icon-rob Icon-wario Icon-sonic Icon-mario Icon-wolf Icon-luigi Icon-ike Icon-bowser Icon-iceclimbers Icon-yoshi Icon-lucas Icon-pit
Low Bottom Fail
29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42
Icon-samus Icon-jigglypuff Icon-donkeykong Icon-olimar Icon-zeldasheik Icon-pokemontrainer Icon-lucario Icon-ganondorf Icon-zelda Icon-sheik Icon-ness Icon-marth Icon-squirtle Icon-toonlink

I also think this is what the SSB and SSBM tier lists should be like:

What the next SSB tier list should be like.
S A B C  
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12  
SSBKIconKirby SSBIconMario SSBIconPikachu SSBIconLink SSBIconYoshi SSBIconJigglypuff SSBIconDK SSBIconLuigi SSBIconFox SSBIconSamus SSBIconCaptainFalcon SSBIconNess

Plus, when is this format going to be done? (and could you please answer soon?)

Pretty good, though Meta Knight should be higher and Ganondorf lower. Regarding the format, we are having some trouble working on it, since one of the main guys on this project, Piratehunter, ended up vandalizing the wiki. Mr. Anon (talk) 20:02, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

I have noticed what you're saying, Mr. Anon. Well, I improved my tier list. Meta Knight is higher (taking Falco's place) and Ganondorf is lower (taking Charizard's place). I realized that Charizard should be in the high tiers becuase his side special move is very powerful. Fox is in Marth's place because I now finally realize that he's very good in Boss Battles (I beated Boss Battles in 3 minutes with him, breaking the previous world record). Marth doesn't have much powerful attacks (except his final smash, but that probably doesn't count), so I put him the low tiers. I have also put Sonic and Yoshi in Lucario and Squirtle's place.

~

[Kyoshi1 speaks:]

Well, someone finally realizes how amazing Charizard is. Sweet. But why not simply define the terms of your tier list? It appears as though you are defining the tier list in terms of powerful moves. If this is the case, you should mark it as such, since otherwise misconceptions will be formed (for instance, people will think you're a complete noob who knows nothing about the game). And why the hell is Olimar so low? His Pikmin throw does up to 36%! I toss a white Pikmin on 'em and grab 'em, letting the whitey-titey rack up some damage while I pummel and throw 'em. Easy-peazy. I do it all the time. Olimar racks up 50+% damage in seconds against just about anyone. Doesn't that count for something? I mean, he literally has the most damaging projectile move in the game...

Also, have you checked out the down-b of ice climbers when they're facing the same direction? 30+% ...they defeat bosses in a matter of seconds.

Come to think of it, Snake's side smash is just as powerful (if not more powerful) than Dedede's hammer, and takes less time to pull off. He should be higher on the list than Dedede - or at the very least, NOT as low as mid tier.

Anyway, I think the idea of different tier lists that evaluate facets of characters is amazing. Have a tier list for Power (this one), a tier list for Final Smashes (Sonic = #1), a tier list for Recovery (Snake, having infinite recovery and being the heaviest character in the game, gets #1 there, while MK gets #2 handily), a tier list for Speed (Fox, MK, Sonic and the like would be top tier), a tier list for Approach Options, a tier list for Spacing Ability, one for Free For All (Ike!), one for Coin Battle, one for Subspace Emissary, etc. you get the idea. This idea excites me very much, and I think it would be a lot easier to decide on placings in each tier list because we would be observing individual characteristics instead of judging the character as a whole.

What do y'all think?

-Just some thoughts

~

Kyoshi, Snake isn't the heaviest character in the game. Of course he is heavy, but it's Bowser who's the heaviest in the game, not Snake. Besides, I've tried to use Snake's infinite recovery and it isn't infinite. Olimar was low before because of his bad recovery and his down special move doesn't do any damage: it just calls for Pikmin. Now Olimar is higher because I learned about his Pikmin. The Ice Climbers are lower because if Nana dies, then Popo's moveset is weakened and his recovery is terrible without Nana. If Popo dies first, then Nana disappears.

[Note from Kyoshi1: Really? Odd. I thought Bowser was the heaviest too until I was told that Snake was the heaviest. At any rate, I suppose I'll go back to my previous information source, which said Snake is the third-heaviest character. (I'll have to confirm that first source, obviously.) I use Snake's recovery too, and you're right; technically, that mine can send you flying through the top of the screen (even from the bottom) if you have enough damage. That would have to be a lot of damage, however. So the better term is virtually infinite recovery. Regarding Ice Climbers, Popo's recovery really doesn't suffer that much if Nana is dead, seeing any IC pro uses the Side-B to recover - the distance of which is not affected by Nana's death. That being said, you are correct about the moves being less powerful when Nana isn't around. I grant that point. However, I thought this tier list was based primarily on theoretical damage capabilities, not actual gameplay (in which Dedede finds that his opportunities to pull off his side-smash are limited at best). Wouldn't that put the Ice Climbers higher than they are now? Thoughts, Kyoshi

And could you respond soon? And why did Piratehunter vandalize the wiki? Plus, could you explain why the characters are in their certain place (ex: why is King Dedede in 10th place?) August 11, 16:36

Honestly, Charizard is well good enough to be in the top "B" tier since he has AMAZING power and speed along with great grabs, airgame and damage racking ablilities. Rock-smash does around 40% if all debris and the headbutt hit, and Flamethrower not only racks up fast damage but protects him from attacks like a full powered charge shot from Samus. Put him where King Dedede is now.....:)

Well, Charizard does have AMAZING power but I put King Dedede in the top spot because he's my favorite character in Brawl. But how about this: I put Charizard in 2nd place and out Zelda in 14th. That should make you more impressed.
Great tier list! Just wait for me to get the formatting done (which should only take a week or two) and it will be up there. Mr. Anon (talk) 04:22, August 12, 2011 (UTC)
Thank you, Mr. Anon!

I believe that instead of everybody fighting for their favorite characters, there should be a list of categories and every character gets a rating in each of them. Some are good categories, like jump, and some are bad, like the likely hood of being knocked out. Put it all in a table, and have people decide for themselves. Ekaj Renrut Wanna be friends? Then Message Me! 15:31, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

How about everyone tells me their favorite character or characters in Brawl! (could I have them soon please?)


Mine is Meta Knight, he IS the best in the game.--Helix-king (talk) 00:41, August 13, 2011 (UTC) btw that tier list is horrible XC --Helix-king (talk) 00:45, August 13, 2011 (UTC)


Why have a "personal" user opinion tier list on the Wiki? Just throw up the approved back room tier lists and past revisions if desired. There's no point putting up "Jonny23ILUVPEACH" opinion tier list. If you DO want to put up individual tier lists, make a completely different section away from the actual tier lists.



Guys, the differences between characters in tiers are so subtle, that most people don't notice them. If they weren't then Brawl would be bland and centralized around Meta Knight and Snake, for example. --ahsu1999

Responding to the tier up there^^, I think Sheik and Zero Suit Samus have been underestimated there, I think they're two of the best in the game. They wouldn't be one and two, but I think both sould be higher. Mint Why did I pull the trigger? 15:54, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

How is Ganondorf low tier on a POWER tier list? He is one of the strongest characters in the game. Practically all of his moves are extremely powerful. And how is Meta Knight at the top? He's definitely good at recovering and his moves have great priority, but his moves aren't very powerful, and he is NOWHERE near as powerful as Ganondorf.

[Kyoshi1 responding to the above comment: Wow you took the words right out of my mouth. Whoever you are, I completely agree. Any Power Tier List needs Ganondorf near the top and Meta Knight near the bottom. Sheer power is sheer power, and while Meta Knight may be an amazing character, power is not one of his specialties. Ganondorf, on the other hand, has only one specialty: power. Consider switching them.]

Recovery Capabilities (Tier List)

This is where the Recovery tier list will be discussed. Each character has different recovery capabilities. A character's weight is actually far less relevant to a character's recovery than other factors. For instance, Meta Knight is a lightweight, but he can survive to 200+% in the hands of professionals. Ganondorf, on the other hand, tends to die at lower percentages, despite the fact that he is a heavyweight. Therefore, weight should not bear a significant impact upon your rankings in this category.

Remember that factors like unpredictability, speed, and distance (horizontal and vertical) will be involved in this evaluation. How interruptable it is will also be considered strongly. Defense against edgegaurding will be another crucial factor. (Speaking of which, it might be good to make an Edgegaurding tier list ...hmm...)

For my own suggestion, I think Snake should be #1 (he's the heaviest character in the game, which wouldn't matter, except that he also happens to have infinite recovery), and Meta Knight should be #2 (he has the most unpredictable recovery in the game, and he can go higher with his recovery than any other character barring Pit).

Let the suggestions begin!

-Kyoshi1

~

RECOVERY Tier List
Snake Top High  
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14  
Icon-snake Icon-metaknight Icon-yoshi Icon-rob Icon-pit Icon-wario Icon-jigglypuff Icon-peach Icon-charizard Icon-ivysaur Icon-mrgame&watch Icon-diddykong Icon-pokemontrainer Icon-luigi
Middle
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
Icon-wolf Icon-pikachu Icon-iceclimbers Icon-fox Icon-falco Icon-zelda Icon-sonic Icon-kingdedede Icon-kirby Icon-marth Icon-lucas Icon-toonlink Icon-zeldasheik Icon-lucario
Low Bottom Fail
29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42
Icon-samus Icon-ike Icon-captainfalcon Icon-mario Icon-olimar Icon-squirtle Icon-sheik Icon-zerosuitsamus Icon-donkeykong Icon-bowser Icon-ganondorf Icon-link Icon-olimar Icon-ness

That's the list so far. Nolimar is included because he's usable in low tier tourneys. As it turns out, his edge magnet makes him better at recovery than Ness, who can be gimped by anyone willing to take a little damage. They both still fail pretty badly at recovery, though.

-Kyoshi1

~

Who's Nolimar? (could you please answer soon?)

A portmanteau of "No" and "Olimar", meaning he's a sucky character. --C. Coleman 23:04, September 4, 2011 (UTC)Totaldramacale

[From Kyoshi1] Nolimar is Olimar without his Pikmin.

Speed (Tier List)

This is where the speed of each character is evaluated. Speed applies to the following:

→Ground movement

→Air movement (VERY important)

→Aerial moves

→Ground moves

→Ending Lag of moves

→Starting Lag of moves

→Duration of moves

→Grab speed

→General evasion

Well, there you go. Suggest away!

-Kyoshi1

~

SPEED Tier List
Spry Top High  
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14  
Icon-metaknight Icon-squirtle Icon-sheik Icon-zerosuitsamus Icon-sonic Icon-fox Icon-falco Icon-marth Icon-pikachu Icon-jigglypuff Icon-wolf Icon-diddykong Icon-wario Icon-pokemontrainer
Middle
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
Icon-mrgame&watch Icon-yoshi Icon-toonlink Icon-lucario Icon-kirby Icon-lucas Icon-pit Icon-ness Icon-olimar Icon-captainfalcon Icon-zeldasheik Icon-olimar Icon-snake Icon-luigi
Low Bottom Fat
29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42
Icon-charizard Icon-ivysaur Icon-donkeykong Icon-peach Icon-mario Icon-link Icon-iceclimbers Icon-rob Icon-kingdedede Icon-zelda Icon-ike Icon-samus Icon-bowser Icon-ganondorf

~

[Place suggestions here]

Link may be slow, but he shouldn't be that far down. Link is faster than several characters, and his DACUS allows him to get across stages extremely quickly. Plus the only time that lag is really a problem for him is with his grab and his dair which if used correctly won't miss and won't cause problems. And how can you put Ike higher up than Link? He's only got slightly faster running speed, and practically all of his moves have a large starting lag and many have ending lag too.

I honestly think it should be like this:

SPEED Tier List
Spry Top High  
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14  
Icon-metaknight Icon-squirtle Icon-sheik Icon-zerosuitsamus Icon-sonic Icon-fox Icon-falco Icon-marth Icon-pikachu Icon-jigglypuff Icon-wolf Icon-diddykong Icon-wario Icon-pokemontrainer
Middle
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
Icon-mrgame&watch Icon-yoshi Icon-toonlink Icon-lucario Icon-kirby Icon-lucas Icon-pit Icon-ness Icon-olimar Icon-captainfalcon Icon-zeldasheik Icon-olimar Icon-snake Icon-luigi
Low Bottom Fat
29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42
Icon-charizard Icon-ivysaur Icon-donkeykong Icon-peach Icon-mario Icon-link Icon-iceclimbers Icon-samus Icon-rob Icon-zelda Icon-kingdedede Icon-ike Icon-bowser Icon-ganondorf

[From Kyoshi1] Hmm ...honestly, I really like this suggestion. This is the kind of input I was hoping for. So let's see:

1. I think you may have a point with Link not being bottom tier. I originally put Link in bottom tier because some of his moves had unacceptable ending lag, but I never considered his DACUS. That was a good observation. Still, the slow grab really bites, and he just can't chase opponents through the air with his aerial moves as well as most other characters. He is definitely low tier - but I think you're right, he shouldn't be bottom tier. Your placement of him looks about right, actually.
2. Dedede ...okay, we all know he's fat and slow. I didn't put him in bottom tier because he also happens to have the fastest falling speed in the game, meaning he can air tease really well. He has a fast grab, a very fast bair and a quick up-tilt. One or two moves usually aren't enough to redeem a character's speed, however, so it was really the air movement that kept him from being bottom tier. Fastest falling speed in the game means it's tough to justify sticking Dedede in Bottom Tier. Still, it's worth considering.
3. Honestly, I think I got the tiers above low and bottom right, but low and bottom were difficult because many (not all) of these characters rely on one or two fast moves in tourney play. Ike, for instance, has an amazing jab, and his bair is lightning. However, he really doesn't have the air speed or running speed to succeed in those categories, and more than 1 or 2 moves should be taken into account when placing characters in speed tiers. Therefore, I think I may agree with your placing of him in bottom tier. Alas. Poor Ike.
4. Not seeing your reasoning for Spamus. Could you provide some? I placed her in bottom tier because she only has one [competent] fast move (her down-tilt), and while that move is certainly amazing, it can only get her so far. She makes me cringe in every other speed consideration.
5. Honestly, your modifications are great, my only real disagreement is in Dedede's placement as bottom tier (he should be low) and Spamus's placement as Low tier (she should be bottom). Switch 'em up and I think we're good.
I'll go ahead and incorporate some of the changes ...voila! There we go. Changes incorporated. Let me know what you think.

Approach Options (Tier List)

Approach is how many ways a character can ...approach ...its target. If it can't really get close to a target without getting obliterated, but must instead wait for its target to come near, it probably won't end up very high on this tier list.

Suggest away!

-Kyoshi1

~

[Place suggestions here]

Spacing Ability (Tier List)

This is where a character's ability to space himself will be evaluated. If you do not know what spacing is, I respectfully request that you do not contribute to this section. Anyone who wishes may provide an adequate definition of spacing here.

---

[Definition of spacing]

---

I might write one later, but I'm kinda too lazy to right now. Sorry. Someone else could probably define it better than I can anyway.

Well, suggest away!

-Kyoshi1

~

[Place suggestions here]

Free for All Prowess (Tier List)

This is where a character's prowess in Free-for-All is evaluated. More specifically:

→How many kills a character can take credit for (includes kill-stealing capabilities)

→How well the character takes advantage of chaos (enough said)

→How much the character can take advantage of not being noticed (ex: pull off some powerful smash on a group of battlers or lay a mine - Snake - when no one is looking)

→How many people are affected by the character's moves (if a character's best tactics are grabs, they won't fare well in FFA, as they'll be vulnerable to attack while holding someone. If a character has a great down/up smash, it's a completely different story)

→Defense (so you aren't always getting picked off)

→Maneuverability (how good is the character at staying out of the middle of the stage, where everyone is attacking him? Can he secure a good position?)

I think Ike, Snake, Dedede and such should be near the top, while characters like Jigglypuff (very one v one focused) and MK (outside of his tornado spam, he doesn't have too much to offer to FFA) should be near the bottom.

Well, let the suggestions begin!

-Kyoshi1

~

FREE FOR ALL PROWESS Tier List
Snake Top High  
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14  
Icon-snake Icon-ike Icon-kingdedede Icon-mrgame&watch Icon-donkeykong Icon-bowser Icon-pit Icon-link Icon-wolf Icon-zelda Icon-lucario Icon-ganondorf Icon-diddykong Icon-yoshi
Middle
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
Icon-charizard Icon-ivysaur Icon-kirby Icon-pikachu Icon-lucas Icon-samus Icon-falco Icon-rob Icon-olimar Icon-wario Icon-iceclimbers Icon-marth Icon-captainfalcon Icon-zeldasheik
Low Bottom Fail
29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42
Icon-toonlink Icon-peach Icon-luigi Icon-pokemontrainer Icon-mario Icon-ness Icon-fox Icon-sheik Icon-squirtle Icon-sonic Icon-metaknight Icon-jigglypuff Icon-zerosuitsamus Icon-olimar

Once again, Nolimar is included. This is mostly for the sake of wi-fi trolls, as low tier tournaments generally don't do Free-for-All matches.

~

[Place suggestions here]

Coin Battle Cunning (Tier List)

This is where a character's cunning in coin battles is evaluated.

Owing to the fact that virtually no one plays coin battles, it may take awhile to get an even remotely accurate tier list for this category.

Characters are evaluated on the following characteristics:

→How quickly they can collect coins after coins have been dropped

→How easily they can make others drop coins

→How many coins they can squeeze out of someone in a single hit (not necessarily related to the move's power, surprisingly)

Let the suggestions begin!

-Kyoshi1

~

Ice Climbers. Their smashes can double-hit, and they collect money twice as fast.--Psychicken17 (talk) 21:12, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

Subspace Emissary Skill (Tier List)

This category is self-explanatory; how good is the character in subspace emissary? If you were going through, say, the castle on Intense to find some secrets, and you happened to be good at all the characters, who would you choose?

IMPORTANT: This tier list does NOT include the Boss Battles.

Let the suggestions begin!

-Kyoshi1

~

The four characters I would choose when going through the Battlefield Fortress (or levels with no real bosses) are...

-Wolf (As he is useful for killing primids with his f-tilt, which is a double hit) -Ganondorf (I know he is the worst character in Brawl, but brute power is sometimes what you need) -Luigi (A normal, balanced character, easy to adapt to) -Ice Climbers (they can KO one of you, but you still have the other)

Hope this helps. I'm new to this Wiki, but I play SSBB almost every day anyway. SmashingWolf, August 20th, 2011, 19:40 (UTC)

Item Handling (Tier List)

This is where a character's ability to handle items is ranked. If anyone here has played the original Super Smash Brothers, they know that Pikachu could handle a baseball bat like no other. That may no longer be the case, but the rule of thumb still stands: some characters are better with certain items than other characters. The purpose of this tier list is to evaluate who is better overall with items.

IMPORTANT: This tier list does NOT include Final Smashes.

Remember, items include beam swords, bananas, guns and the like. Characters with a superior first hop (Luigi) are good with hammers, but having a bad short hop (Luigi) makes skilled gun tracking difficult. Weigh advantages and disadvantages. As always, try your very best to be objective. Whether it is free for all or one on one is not a factor; this is measuring item handling only.

Let the suggestions begin!

-Kyoshi1

~

[Place suggestions here]

Final Smashes (Tier List)

This is where characters are ranked upon how good their Final Smash is and how easily they can gain final smashes. In short, it measures the advantage characters would have if final smashes were turned on. This tier list looks purely at final smashes and how easily they can be obtained. The level of the advantage is measured.

The primary factor should be how good their final smash is; how easily they can obtain a final smash should be reserved for cases in which it is difficult to decide which final smash is better (ex: Toon Link's projectiles make him much better at obtaining final smashes than Link, so he would go above Link, even though they have the same Final Smash). However, if the character is so good at getting final smashes that no one else can really get them when they're around (ex: Pit's arrows, which can score the final hit on a smash ball with ease), it doesn't really matter if others have a better final smash (not to say Pit should be high on this tier list, but you get the idea).

For my own suggestions, I think Sonic should be #1 (NOW I'LL SHOW YOU), Olimar #2, the Starfox Characters #3-5 (I can't decide on the order there), then top tier should end. Bottom tier should have characters like Lucario (WOTCH THE EPICFAIL!), Donkey Kong, Ice Climbers (I have NEVER seen anyone die from that Final Smash), ZSS and Jigglypuff (Oh no! I have like 20 minutes to find a ledge to hold!). Those are some of my thoughts.

Suggest away!

-Kyoshi1

~

FINAL SMASHES Tier List
Sonic Top High  
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14  
Icon-sonic Icon-olimar Icon-fox Icon-wolf Icon-falco Icon-diddykong Icon-wario Icon-yoshi Icon-snake Icon-zelda Icon-zeldasheik Icon-sheik Icon-kingdedede Icon-bowser
Middle
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
Icon-samus Icon-pit Icon-lucas Icon-ness Icon-rob Icon-marth Icon-ganondorf Icon-mrgame&watch Icon-toonlink Icon-link Icon-ike Icon-captainfalcon Icon-pikachu Icon-olimar
Low Bottom Fail
29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42
Icon-pokemontrainer Icon-ivysaur Icon-squirtle Icon-charizard Icon-peach Icon-luigi Icon-metaknight Icon-mario Icon-kirby Icon-iceclimbers Icon-donkeykong Icon-lucario Icon-jigglypuff Icon-zerosuitsamus

For this tier list, I think there should only be 5 main tiers, as the final smashes are really only divisible by 5 major categories anyway. I'm open to suggestions for more tier divisions (or sub-tier divisions), provided you have a well-reasoned argument. I do have a "Sonic" tier reserved for Sonic, since he is the only character in the game with a final smash that, in its deadly part, cannot be avoided (provided the user knows what he's doing). The "Fail" tier is for ZSS, since DI prevents her final smash from doing even 10% damage, and it transforms her into Samus, making it negative. That's right: ZSS has a final smash that actually HURTS her more than it helps her. Yeah...

It's funny that "Sonic" tier is located where "S" tier would be (the "S" stands for "Sonic"), and "Fail" tier is located where "F" tier would be (the "F" stands for "Fail"). I also like how the tiers ended up being so balanced.

Brief summaries will be provided for why each character is where he is in this list. The list is subject to changes, but I request that a suggestion be placed first; I will be the one to make the actual changes, after your suggestion is discussed, etc.

Nolimar is included on this tier list because, even though he has the same final smash as Olimar, he is less capable of obtaining that final smash. Likewise, the PT characters are divided by how capable they are of obtaining a final smash. Those Smash Balls can be tricky.\

-Kyoshi1

P.S. Has anyone found the two easter eggs yet?


~


Sonic should be a little lower because his Final Smash is hard to control. Anyways, put Jigglypuff in at least the Mid tiers because she almost always KO's opponents during her Final Smash (when she shouts "JIGGLYOO!"). Just some thoughts.

So I am kinda new to this website, so sorry if this is the wrong spot to type...my computers pretty wierd. I like the 5 tiers, but i have my own opinions on some of them. first of all, i think samus is WAAAY too low on the list. shes my #1, because if youre caught in that, youre pretty much dead. my top tier also has snake, lucas, ness, bowser, olimar, and ganondorf. they all have great supermoves that either rack up a TON of damage or kill you right away. i put landmasters, triforce slashes, and light arrows in the next tier because theyre hard to hit people with and landmasters also dont guarantee death. i put sonic in this tier too, because if youre an amature like me, its pretty hard to control. i agree with your bottom tier (for the most part) but think you should add robs (all it does is zap you). well thats my opinions, hope you like them!Starwarsfan9797 (talk) 18:10, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

And what are the easter eggs?Starwarsfan9797 (talk) 20:19, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm...

Link should be higher than Toon Link, because Link's can reach all the way across Final Destination, but Toon Link's only reaches about half that distance. Also, I agree with the last person who commented that landmasters should be moved down a little and R.O.B's should be moved down a lot.

I've got to agree with the last person, and i should know as i mostly play as falco and toon link, that link's final smash reaches WAY farther than toon link's, and falco's and fox's and wolf's final smashes are a bit disapointing. OK if you're just in a friendly match with a friend who isnt that good, but any experienced player should be able to dogde it. and a lot of the ones like jigglypuff's or mr game and watch's are pretty easy to dodge. Lastly, I dont see why ones like yoshi's and wario's and diddy kong's are that high.

Wario's is high probably because he is good at getting the smashball. Also, Lucas is far better than Ness in terms of Final Smash. Ness' are smaller and not as much of a barrage at the end, not to mention PK thunder can get the smashball far away. Ganon should be higher, but he can't get smash balls for his life.--Psychicken17 (talk) 14:38, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Team Battle Tact (Tier List)

This is where Team Battle tactics are evaluated. For instance, characters with slow, powerful moves (Falcon Punch!) can hit someone if that person is being held by Captain Falcon's teammate. Yoshi's flutter kick can hold characters in place while Ike uses his B move - you get the idea. It's all about teamwork.

Suggest away!

-Kyoshi1

~

[Place suggestions here]

Stadium Savvy (Tier List)

Each character has different strengths and weaknesses in different stadiums. For instance, Ganondorf has the world record for single player home run contest (over 6,000 feet), while Ice Climbers is my preference for Boss Battles.

IMPORTANT: This tier list does NOT include Classic, Subspace Emissary, All Star or the Event Matches. Those fall into the regular tier categories, because they're basically just a string of regular battles; they elicit no new characteristic of the character.

STADIUM SAVVY evaluates how well the character does in the following categories:

→Home Run Contest (both solo and co-op)

→All variations of Multi-Man Brawl

→Target Smash (all levels)

→Boss Battles

In this category, suggestions will be taken for the tier placings in such a list. Suggest away!

-Kyoshi1

[From Kyoshi1] I'll begin. I think Ganondorf should be high tier for his prowess in the Home Run Contest and Multi-Man Brawls. He's horrible in Target Smash, however, so I don't think he should be top tier. Olimar, Fox and Pit are amazing at Target Smash, but Pit fails in Boss Battles and is not particularly impressive in the HRC.

Ultimately, I haven't done enough testing to really know much about how well these characters perform under such Stadium modes, so I would appreciate all the suggestions I can get.

~

Let's see... Ganon is beast at HRC but nothing else. Lucas is great at Boss Battles in my opinion, especially when you jump, use PK thunder, pierce the boss a few times, and then direct it into yourself. For target smash, Olimar, Fox, Lucas (Pk thunder), and Snake are the best, in my opinion. 100-man and 15 min brawls are the place where characters like Falcon, with fast, launching attacks (Side B) shine. The best way to succeed in Cruel Brawl is to repeatedly edgegrab or fly under the stage, making MK and Kirby good choices.--Psychicken17 (talk) 21:12, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

Ok first off the tier list doesnt play as nearly as big of a role as it did in melee. Characters for the most part are very well balanced save a couple. The only way we can truly judge is by actual competitions not personel playing and favorites. Though two characters are very obvious in their standings. Metaknight and Ganondorf. I am a fairly experienced pit player(dont call me a newb, i have been playing for years) and i faced off against my friends little brother, who is very cheap, uses cheap character and moves yatta yatta. He really sucks...not going to lie, but he chose metaknight and managed to beat me by using his extremely cheap moveset and quick atacks. metaknight is cheap, quick and there is no escaping his attacks. he is master of the air second only to Pit. Does well on the ground and overall is just a pwning character. Ganandorf is slow....extremely. thats prolly the only reason hes a bottom tier. So as far as the top and bottom tier goes I believe its just find and accurate. TIS ME THE AWESOME DRAGOON 23:18, August 20, 2011 (UTC)


Tier List

I've been play Brawl for awhile now, more like a month since it came out, and I want to know who is the best character, overall. The old Tier List give me some insight, and I agree with it, but I'm wondering if it is just opinion or is it somehow tested? I was thinking of making my own overall Tier List by having a best-of-five, three stock, no item or smash ball round-table tournament with all the characters being level 9 CPUs. If there is any cycle of characters, I will keep having matches until it makes a single line, or just have them be tied. I was wondering if anyone was interested in how it turns out. Ekaj Renrut Wanna be friends? Then Message Me! 16:55, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

I'd be glad to help you out with that TIS ME THE AWESOME DRAGOON 17:08, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

I don't really need help with it, but thanks for the offer Ekaj Renrut Wanna be friends? Then Message Me! 17:12, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

The tier list isn't based on how the CPUs use the characters, it's based on how the characters are used in tournaments. There are some techniques that can be utilized in tournaments but aren't used by CPUs. For example, the Ice Climbers would be around middle-tier, but because of their chain-grabbing ability they are very highly ranked. The CPUs don't use characters to their full potential.

i think that the two highest tiers should be ike and meta knight. the five who are in the second tier are snake falco ganondorf link and samus. the third tier has 10 who are lucario bowser captain falcon marth sonic pit toon link wolf sheik and r.o.b the fourth tier is low and has 18 characters ice climbers ness lucas jigglypuff pokemon trainer pikachu zelda peach yoshi donkey kong diddy wario fox luigi mario olimar kirby king dedede and the lowest is mr game and watch. Cybersubby 9:26

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