Forum:The Tier List, version 3

Pikamander will prolly add the tier list once it is released on June 5th. But while we're waiting for that day to arrive, let's discuss what we can expect from the SBR's third Brawl tier list. What are your thoughts? Mine are that the last place honor will go to a new character since Ally's great performance with Falcon at APEX, and I'd also like to see Dedede move down, but that prolly won't happen. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 18:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

From what I have read, Ganondorf is likely to take Falcon's spot. Y462 (T • C • E ) 20:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Makes sense, especially when you consider that Ganon is the only character in the game with a 0:100 match-up. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 20:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The sad part is he is my other main. He should at least have a 1:99.  Y462 (T • C  • E ) 21:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, no match-up is completely impossible, which is what 0:100 illustrates. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 01:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually a 0:100 means that for every 1000 Brawls, Ganondorf wins fewer than five times on average, meaning that his win percentage is <0.5%. Matchups are all* given to 0 decimal places, so a win percentage of <0.5% against a particular character is rounded to 0% when taken to 0 decimal places. Therefore, a 100:0 matchup doesn't mean it's impossible for Ganondorf to win, it just means that on average he wins no more than four times per thousand Brawls.
 * * (There are some matchups that aren't to 0 decimal places, but there are only thirteen of them and they're either 62.5:37.5, 52.5:47.5 or 42.5:57.5, which correspond to average win ratios of 5:3, 21:19 and 17:23 respectively, but none of them even begin to approach a win ratio of 1:249, which is the win ratio for the example given above in which Ganondorf wins only four Brawls per thousand.)
 * I am  Penguin  of  Death  , and I love stats. 16:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * lol Ganon has a 5-95 matchup =D thats the lowest it goes, because nothings so unwinnable its 0:100 JtM =^&#93; (talk) 22:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh I've forgotten. For this tier list, I don't expect much changes. But I'd like to see Lucas moving up ^^ Metalink187 (talk) 12:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I added the list to the top of the page on June 5, just like GalaxiaD predicted. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 16:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Marth moved down, not happy... :( Wario is overrated to me. Metalink187 (talk) 16:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the third best? Since when? And how did Sonic and PT shoot up? Aside from that, I'm glad that Fox surpassed Wolf and DDD moved down. And Falcon's not worst anymore! -  GalaxiaD  Talk 19:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wario can avoid "combos" due to his floatiness, and he's got some decent moves. And a bike. PT users are developing strategies for each Pokemon, so they no longer need to depend on one of the pokemon. Sonic I expected to move up, but not by eight. DDD is heavy, so he can get raped by some characters, and Ganon still beats Falcon IMO. Smoreking (T)  (c)  18:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

As expeted, Ganon dropped and Jigglypuff rose. I am happy Jigglypuff rose while sad Ganon dropped again. Both of my mains are still bottom tier. Y462 (T • C • E ) 20:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I just wish that Link'd go up, Ike'd go up, Ness'd go up, Jigglpuff would take Ganon's place, and Ganon'd overtake Falcon again. ''' Ike's Best Buddy
 * Unfortunately, as long as Marth (and whoever else) has that infinite chaingrab on Ness and Lucas, I doubt either one of 'em will go much anywhere else. Jigglypuff's, got a decent enough game to warrant not being bottom, she deserves that spot.  Ganondorf isn't bottom, though.  I personally think it's Link.  He has no unique qualities that sets him apart from the bunch (this is mainly Toon Link's fault, as TL does pretty much everything better than Link does).  He's got one of the, if not the, worst recovery in the game as well as a poor ground game and a meh aerial game.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 16:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Jigglypuff also hard counters Diddy Kong, so that might help getting out of bottom tier. She also goes even with MK and possibly soft-counters Falco.  It's probably these guys that keep Jigglypuff bottom tier.  Y462 (T • C  • E ) 17:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was wanting Sonic to go up from the second tier list to the third, but I didn't expect him to shoot up. Kinda disappointed that Link went down that low. I'm surprised that Wario's higher than Falco. Unknown the   Hedgehog  20:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wario-Floaty, DACUS, bike, chomp can break combos, recovery, etc. Smoreking (T)  (c)  20:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Wario got a great place, I believe in the future he will be 2nd because now people know Wario is an amazingly good character. So low place as 8th was because many people thinks he's disgusting (not me). Get Snake's place in the next tier list! Wario is less vulnerable to counter picks. Firewario (talk) 20:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Meta Knight and Snake aren't gonna be moving for a while. Snake has amazing range and physical attacks. With proper timing, he can get a f-tilt lock, and with proper reading of his opponent, he can D-throw chain them. Not to mention his AAA combo rape, Utilt rape, and forward tilt second hit strength. His DACUS goes way further than Wario's, and launches a projectile at the end, allowing for an amazing approach. He also has an amazing recovery with his bomb jumps, and he's got a bunch of projectiles. Snake's strong, and he has range and projectiles. Smoreking (T)  (c)  21:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Snake's recovery is bad IMO, he is really open for spikes or Wario's Chomp. Wario's recovery is much better. His ground game is really good, but his air game is terrible, his aerials have a lot of lag, that a terrible weakness, that's why he hates stages like Rainbow Cruise and Norfair. Snake's DACUS should only be used to surprise or get to the edge quickly when the opponent is offstage. When we get a really good Wario I believe he'll be 2nd. Firewario (talk) 21:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * He can airdodge the spikes or use a Bair or Uair on the opponent before they hit him, and can bomb jump to regain cypher. Snake's DACUS can be used in most situations, wether it be escaping, approaching, or just plain moving. There are no stages that are completely aerial, so he can land, pull out a grenade or some sort of projectile, then proceed into the air. His Uair and Bair are both quick and strong, his Fair is a meteor smash, and if it doesn't, it's still a decent attack. I'll agree that his Dair isn't that good, but his Nair can be really strong if he hits with the final attack, and the other ones can juggle in a minor way, and deal damage. Smoreking (T)  (c)  21:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

While Snake is below he IS vulnerable to spikes. If he air dodge, he'll self destruct before the C4 is planted. Clearly that 2 stages forces him to use his laggy aerials. The stages where he isn't forced to use his aerials are much better. See many tourney matches to count how many times he got spiked when offstage. End of this discussion about Snake's weaknesses. Firewario (talk) 21:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude, have you seen Snake's tourney results when compared to anyone else's (except MK)? There's a reason he had his own tier last time.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 03:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Differences
Here are the differences between version two and three.
 * 0 Meta Knight
 * 0 Snake
 * +5 Wario
 * -1 Falco
 * +2 Diddy Kong
 * -2 King Dedede
 * -1 Marth
 * -3 Mr. Game & Watch
 * +3 Pikachu
 * +1 Olimar
 * +4 Ice Climbers
 * -3 R.O.B.
 * 0 Kirby
 * -4 Lucario
 * +1 Zero Suit Samus
 * +1 Toon Link
 * +1 Pit
 * -4 Donkey Kong
 * 0 Peach
 * +1 Luigi
 * +3 Fox
 * -2 Wolf
 * +8 Sonic
 * +1 Sheik
 * -2 Bowser
 * -4 Zelda
 * +5 Pokémon Trainer
 * +2 Ike
 * -1 Lucas
 * -3 Mario
 * -2 Ness
 * +1 Yoshi
 * -3 Samus
 * +1 Jigglypuff
 * +3 Captain Falcon
 * -2 Link
 * -1 Ganondorf


 * Greatest Rise = Sonic +8
 * Greatest Fall = Lucario, Donkey Kong, and Zelda -4 Unknown  the   Hedgehog  20:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Commentary
I'm likely to make another one (see link on my page), but here's my quick takes:
 * The list itself: Glad to see MK and Snake are back in to regular tiers.
 * Lucas: I still don't like him being that low.
 * Sheik: Ahead of Zelda? Didn't see that coming.  I kinda agree with it, I guess.
 * Wario: Another surprise. I had a feeling he'd move up, but not that far.  I disagree with him being ahead of G&W, Falco, and Dedede.
 * Toon Link moved up!!!
 * Biggest surprise: WTF@SONIC?!? Anyone who saw that coming needs to lay off the drugs.  I'd like to hear an explanation on that one for sure.

That's all for now. Expect an actual page on it later on my page.  Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 22:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, Lucas is my best character. Considerable versatility, obscenely potent smash attacks, and the fact that he totes a tether grab. But he's ranked at E. To be honest, the entire tier system is a bit of a crock. Any character can beat any other depending on circumstances, skill, luck, and the style of the player using it, to say that one character is inferior to any other is foolish at best. Who decides this anyway? The game is meant to be enjoyed and played for entertainment, not to stick it to people and mock their choices in style. Exdeath64 (talk) 05:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Wario isn't that bad, people...
You guys can throw whatever disadvantage Wario has at us (me and FireWario, assuming he's helping) and we will counter it with something to get by that flaw. At TourneyPlay, M2K fought FICTION and FICTION beat him, 3-1 iirc. The best MK and the best Wario fighting and the Wario winning is excellent. Wario deserves his spot in 3rd place. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 15:25, 13 June 2009 (UTC)