Forum:The Tier List/Archive 1

The official Tier List just came out. Discuss. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 02:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The official Most Used Characters List just came out. Discuss. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 02:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Fixed your post. Cafinator (talk) 02:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That was rude and not really an opinion on it. Consider why they're the most used. Just take a minute to wonder at all the possibilities of the why, rather than making a sarcastic remark. --Sky (t · c · w) 02:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sarcasm is one of my **Free!** services! Cafinator (talk) 02:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * we never wanted it JtM =^&#93; (talk) 02:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh heh heh. Cafinator (talk) 02:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let's try a serious post. I personally am surprised by how low sonic was, I thought he was going to be a lot higher. Pit to, if you just keep spamming as pit, you'll eventually win.Smorekingxg456 (talk) 17:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

For some reason, I didn't find it very suprising to see Captain Falcon on the bottom. - Amycats2 (talk) 17:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC) I did, the only reson hi's at the bottom is because the best guys just are good for Meta Knights type of strategy. In my opinion, the characters have different ways of winning, not different amounts of winning. Like Bowser is for close up and powerful attacks, not aerial battles, such as Meta Knight's. Captain Falcon is at the bottom because he's been used so infrequently in tournaments. I personally, cannot use Meta Knights strategy, because I prefer not to risk crashing in aerial battles. I prefer the edgeguarding tactics that captain falcon allows.Man of falcon (talk) 18:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not true. You're underestimating the creative ability of professional players. Have you SEEN what they've done? At a point in which people are even tourney-worthy, most characters are stymied by G&W. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * What I meant was that each character is as good as any of the others. It's the skill of the player that determines how strong the character is. And, personally, Captain Falcon is my best character.Man of falcon (talk) 15:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

pagebreak
That list cannot be right.--Oxico (talk) 19:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Um, yeah. This list has some problems. Let's take a look, shall we?
 * Snake -- No way is he number 2. Try number 19 at most. He's slow, his projectiles are not that good, and his moves are laggy with modest priority.
 * Try telling that to all the pros who lost to a Snake. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Snakes lose too. Your statement doesn't even have the virtue of the reverse being false. A large number of pros play Snake, ergo, you have a large number of tournament victories with Snake. That doesn't say anything about Snake's value as a character, it says everything about the number of people who play Snake. Brawl is a very young game. The sample size is far too small. Semicolon (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you know why a large number of pros play snake competitively? Because he is a great character that allows the pros to win more. Pros are obviously going to pick the char that brings out the maximum chance of success. Granted, there might be a tier list upset like Bum's DK or a technique that revolutionizes a character's game, but until that happens, snake is top tier. With everybody else coming way later.
 * Snake's up top because of his tilts. They're like smash attacks, except faster and slightly weaker. He can control the stage using his bombs and nades. He's also one of the heaviest characters.


 * DDD -- He's number 3 because of his chain grabs. That's a stupid reason, only partly because nobody wants to see some guy just chaingrab his way through a slew of mediocre Sonics for an entire tournament. Retarded.
 * Many other characters as well. Also, minions FTW. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A silly person once said 'Not an argument.' Semicolon (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * ROB -- I still don't see why people think ROB is good. He's bad people, he's really very bad. If someone takes issue with this point, we ought to go somewhere else because I swear I can write pages about how bad ROB is.
 * Not an argument. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No, but I said I had an argument if someone wanted to hear it. Semicolon (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Have you ever played against a good ROB? He's heavy, not that slow, has a very long-ranged ftilt, has an incredible recovery that you can attack out of, and he can WOP you and return to the stage more efficiently than Jiggly.


 * Wario -- His moves are so laggy, he doesn't hit hard, he falls way too fast, he's even somewhat light. WTF is Wario doing so high?
 * He wins. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * For now. Semicolon (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * He doesn't fall THAT fast. Fast falling is actually good, it prevents others from juggling you. If you know how to use Wario, he can be pretty darn good.Template:Signatures/Tienjt0 00:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Lucario -- He's slow, laggy, and his damage dealt and priority are dependent on his own damage percentage. Bad idea? Methinks so.
 * Azen. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * What? Semicolon (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hahaha, anyway... Lucario has some quick moves, along with combo ability and powerful kill moves that have amazing range. Lucario is not only good if he's damaged, it's just that he's designed to get better as he gets closer to death, making him good for combacks ZaxYo 22:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Donkey Kong -- Don't even know what to say about this one (I'm so flabbergasted), except that Donkey has always sucked. Always. You don't mess with that kind of tradition.
 * DK got like 60 times faster and has an insanely high priority quick aerial.


 * Zelda -- She's all power without the lag, so where's the love? Her priority is extremely high, too. Her only problems are her relative weight and speed, but she doesn't deserve so far as 20th.

The rest is fine, I guess. I also think it's a bit irresponsible to release a tier list so early. I mean, when the game first came out it was fun to speculate but the BR is serious which is what's scary to me. It takes years to make an accurate tier list, and they may just have f-ed up the metagame of other characters for an awful long time by making everyone focus on their top six or seven. That's okay for me, I guess, because I have no problem newbbashing Snakes, ROBs and DDDs all day. Semicolon (talk) 20:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well Donkey Kong has horrible matchups against the others except for ironically the higher cast. For example he does pretty well against Mr Game and Watch plus he's the only matchup against meta knights thats not neutral or in meta knights favor - Hatake91 (talk) 22:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

guys, people were nagging the SBR to make one, so they had to hurrily finish it up. a new one will come out in a year. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 21:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you mostly except about R.O.B. I can write pages on how GOOD he is. I use him and can do very well, almost as good as Meta Knight. I was also expecting the Space Animals to be higher...ALOT HIGHER. I also think CF should NOT BE ON THE BOTTOM. He is fast and damages well. I can write alot more but I will hold off for now.--Oxico (talk) 21:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps then we should Brawl. I'm on C-Hawk's Wii. Are you available? Semicolon (talk) 21:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That was fast. I agree with it; Meta Knight and Snake are definitely top tier.--Richard 21:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * CF has low priority on, like, everything. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Remember that 50% is tournament listings and the other 50% is Matchups...R.O.B and DDD have good matchups but what surprises me is Meta Knight. They say he has an advantage over Marth. WRONG! Marth overmatches Meta knight in range(a big part of his advantage) and aerial game( Fair and Uair anyone?) Plus Meta knight players say his dair is incredible but Marth's is a much better and reliable killer. - Hatake91 (talk) 21:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

i dunno i think snake sould be in top tier cuz hes 3rd heavyest in the game and his attacks are fast and powerful72.197.66.113 04:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Marth gets killed by MK. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 22:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd call it neutral at best - Hatake91 (talk) 22:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

How the hell is it even possible to come up with a tier list in Brawl when the game hasn't even been out for a year? Or if the physics of the game hasn't been exploited? Well whatever, I happen to be one of those who doesn't give a damn about "tiers". I mean come on, Sonic a low tier? He's like of the cheapest characters in Brawl. Brawl Tier list are fail. Magiciandude (talk) 00:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Or if the physics of the game hasn't been exploited?" You seriously believe this? Also, Melee's list wasn't that late in its onset, either, and your not caring about tiers takes away your right to criticize them. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

This list is a little weird. The only reason snake and meta knight are in those positions is because they are very easy to use, and they are the characters that are seen way more than others in tournaments. Snake has no business in top tier because he is too slow. Wolf is way better than that. He can take advantage of projectile spammers. He is also capable of destrying many character's ground game with his reflector. Wolf is in general very fast. Jigglypuff isn't that bad. Jigglypuff can wall of pain opponents with few troubles. Jigglypuff can also combo most characters very well with its attacks. It is also nearly impossible to chain throw.Y462 (talk) 01:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "and they are the characters that are seen way more than others in tournaments." - reread tier list please. --Sky (t · c · w) 01:19, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I know how the tier list is made if that is what you mean. I said that because that is actually what I see and hear.  I am sorry if I caused confusion. Y462 (talk) 02:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Even if there are a ton of Snakes, the fact that Snake dominated tournament finals so well suggests that he's way higher than 19th.


 * It was a non-argument to counter a non-argument. DDD's #3 only because of chain grabs? Not only does it work on many characters, but many characters also have chain grabs, so that can't be the only reason. I also gave two reasons more than you did. Now it's three, and with the disjointed hitbox, it's four.


 * Sorry, lol. But ROB is very good in tournaments. It just seemed like you were going by personal experience, you know? And theory isn't everything.


 * Nothing I have to say about Wario, lol.


 * The main reason for Lucario's placement (AFAIK) is Azen. He brought out a lot of what's good in Lucario. And the damage thing is GOOD because low-% kills rarely happen.


 * Hatake91 already handled DK, lol. -capefeather (talk) 14:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * No, it means nothing (yet). He is dominating tournament finals because (a) he's arguably the most played character (b) the game is young [i.e. metagames are not developed] and (c) some of the best players play Snake. Player skill>tier placement.
 * Well, if there are other reasons DDD belongs up top aside from his large number and widely applicable chain grabs, please, tell me. I'm dying to know.
 * It does seem like I'm going from personal experience, largely because I am. But, then again, aren't tiers decided by personal experience? Tiers are empirically decided. Without hard evidence, facts, or statistics (there are some of these, but they are entirely relative) the only way to decide things of this sort is through empirical verification. The fact that I have decided these things in this manner in no way disqualifies my opinions.
 * Yeah, but these players can probably play your main and still beat you. The point is, they know what they are talking about with either experience or research. There are some hidden factors, but until a player can change theorycraft and smack to reality, its more than likely that they are right.
 * You can't make a tier judgment based on a single player. He may have developed the metagame, but if he's the only one who can employ it, that's largely a player skill thing, and not a tier thing. And maybe I misunderstood you, but are you suggesting that Lucario is better because he rarely kills people at low damage percentages? I can't imagine that's what you mean, but that's what it sounds like.
 * I don't think you can place a character based on his matchups with (at this point) merely postulated tiers. His placement is silly. Semicolon (talk) 17:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You do have a very good point, it is way too early for a tier list in brawl. But the tier crazed fans were demanding it like crazy. Maybe the Smashwiki should develop it owns tier list? - Hatake91 (talk) 23:00, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Dude, just because Snake's slow doesn't mean he sucks. Snake isn't that slow anyway. His tilts are wicked, almost equal in power to Smash attacks, and much faster. His uptilt has huge range, and so does his ftilt. Snake can also combat projectile spammers like Falco because of his crouch and ability to crawl. And trust me, Jigglypuff is no match for Snake. Template:Signatures/Tienjt0 00:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

No, no, no, NO!!!
JIGGLY, NESS, AND SONIC ARE NOT LOW TIER! Para Goomba 348 (C'mon, just talk to me ) 01:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Reasoning? -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

For one, Jiggly is among some strong characters, a small target, low crouch, is good at comboing, hard to combo, rest has flower affect AND high knockback, can make opponents fall asleep, and has the 2nd fastest air speed and slowest falling speed in the game, making her the best at recoveries in the game. Ness has strong aerials, PK Fire can edgeguard well, he can absorb projectiles, PK Flash is powerful, he is a small target, has a [relatively] low crouch, and has a meteor smash. Sonic has the fastest running speed in the game, a great comboer, up and b is really high, can use all his moves in recovery, and he is a [relatively] small target. There you have it. They should be higher. Para Goomba 348 (C'mon, just talk to me ) 16:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * See, complaints like these are the reasons why I don't give a bullfuck about tiers. "Tiers are for queers". Magiciandude (talk) 18:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The thing about tiers is that all those pro players chose snake before the tier list was made. They didn't choose him because he was top tier, they chose him because he's a cool new character with a cool new play style. I'm still gonna use Link, Bowser and Samus even though they didn't do so well with the tiers. Pro players could probably still beat me even if I used meta knight and they used jigglypuff. Players who switch their main to snake and meta night because they ended up on top of the tier list are nothing but tools. The game is about Fun after all that's what nintendo was trying to do with this game.Super G 500 (talk) 23:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Jiggly shoulld be HIGHER!!! He can do the wall of pain and he can use rising pound.Y46264Y (talk) 23:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I think MK has probably replaced Jiggly as the Wall of Pain character of choice. Better reach (sword FTW) and almost as good recovery (jumps + glide x2) just make him a better choice in most cases. –Entrea Sumatae 23:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That being said, thoguh, I bet the tier list will probably change a lot once the world gets tired with the new characters and starts using the old ones equally. This probably includes Jigglypuff's very good air game. And that last post of mine was more than a little biased: I just plain think Meta Knight is cool, and haven't played Jiggly much. –Entrea Sumatae 00:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I personally don't think that any character in brawl can replace Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff's wall of pain (in my opinion at least) is better Than MK's  because a) Jigglypuff has better air speed b) jigglypuff's aerials produces a more desireable knockback and c) Jigglypuff has better recovery.  I'm saying  this because I main Jigglypuff.  Jigglypuff has arguably the best air game in brawl. Y462 (talk) 00:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "Wall of Pain", "Fence of pain"...
 * ...Plumbing system of pain! Front lawn of pain! CEILING FAN OF PAIN!!Cafinator (talk) 00:36, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Cheez's ten cents
I mained Jigglypuff in melee, and I gotta say, no hit-stun in brawl really hurt her/him (I don't know). Anyway, I really hate this tier list! You guys can say what you want, but this list was rushed. Next time, I hope they think more about it before giving in to pressure. Cheezperson (speak to the big cheez)
 * Marth is too low. There is no way ROB (as awesome as he is) and Dedede are higher than he is.
 * Luigi below Bowser?!? What were they thinking?  One of the best aerial users in the game against one of the biggest targets in the game?
 * Toon Link, Olimar, and Zelda were my biggest surprises. All three have amazing movesets.  Yes, Olimar uses tether recovery, Zelda is kinda cheap, and Toon Link has horrid tourney results, but none of them     are below Wolf (have you tried to recover with him consistently?)
 * Lucas below Sheik is a crime. Especially because their reasoning is probably "Marth can chaingrab him."


 * Congratz on actually making some valid points. The only one I can refute is Marth. The fact that ROB has a projectile game and amazing recovery really helps him. Marth just isn't the beast he is melee, and his lack of a long range game is more of a hindrance than ever.


 * I'm going to refute "Luigi below Bowser" by again simply linking tier list. This is not about 1v1 in each and every specific case. This is about the characters' overall performance in tournaments and the state of their metagame. --Sky (t · c · w) 19:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If I read correct, the list was 50% tourney results and 50% matchups. According to my math (may be outdated), Marth should still be ahead of ROB, but not Dedede.  That may also explain Toon Link and Lucas's placements.  I forgot that this list (like mine) is more based on numbers than opinion, as it should be.  With Luigi and Bowser though, I still don't see why.  Bowser's best tactic is the Bowsercide (debatable), and Luigi can combo like Ken (who is gonna be on Survivor! WOOT!).  I've never played against, or seen, a decent Bowser user in action, and I main Luigi, so there is some bias there.  I still stand by what I said: the list was rushed, and, as a result, the list looks it.  Cheezperson  (speak to the big cheez)

WTF is this S*%#?!?!
Tool link lost to DDD and wario?????????BULLSHIT. Captain falcon is LAST?!?!BULLSHIT!!!! HOW is Ike so low??? He has INSANE power! He kills at like 30%, and has 2 super armor moves!

Ike sucks, that's all I have to say.

Is that all? DDD and Wario are much better than that. - Hatake91 (talk) 21:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with this list almost entirely. Pikachu, Lucas and Captain Falcon are my best characters and they are all lower tiers, Captain Falcon apparently being the worst character. Tiers are jokes, honestly. Dexington (talk) 23:10, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, to best describe this I shall use a Jack Sparrow quote,"Gentlemen I wash my hands of this whole weirdness."Man of falcon (talk) 00:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

No one in there right minds would use a lot of the Upper Tier characters. I've always been one who didn't pay attention to Tier Lists, but the only upper tier character I have seen anyone use was Snake. The rest used lower tier characters. I use Power Suit and Zero Suit regularly and I can take out any of the upper tier characters. This is a game where you should depend on your character's skills, and not what character everyone else says is good to use. User:Tim Nemec

You guys don't read do you? For one dexington yes those are your best. The Tier list post says clearly the list is not for determining who your best with, thats why not everyone is only using metaknight, because they are using characters that fit themselves best. And Timnemec everyone's taste is different besides more people use Metaknight than samus or Zero suit you just haven't seen them I guess. - Hatake91 (talk) 00:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I concur, the tier List is completely meaningless and does nothing to describe the potential for each character. Man of falcon (talk) 21:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Captain Falcon in a right placement...
Sorry, fanboys, but I had to say this: Captain Falcon DOESN'T WIN A SINGLE TOURNAMENT ANYMORE, DEAL WITH IT --Jigglypuff is God (talk) 03:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * He's awesome with any game with three or more people. Oh wait, tournaments. Bwahahahaha! Cafinator (talk) 04:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Captain falcon may not win many tourneys anymore but he sure as hell should be higher on the list than link, ganon, bowser, and jigglypuff.

Lol He actually has won the most tournaments out of the entire low tier( he won 1...more than the others :P) but that was it while the others ahead of him were in the top 3 multiple times but never won a single one - Hatake91 (talk) 21:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

All About Luigi
After skimming over the majority of this page, I've decided to make a subsection where we can talk about why Luigi needs to be bumbed up. I'm a believer that if you nag about it enough, someone has to listen. Here's some bullets, feel free to add some of your own. ZaxYo 22:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC) -Luigi's aerial game is fast, powerful, and perfect for comboing and edge guarding. -Luigi's low traction makes him great for spamming a sliding smash attack as opposed to his pretty bad running attack. -Luigi's fire punch, should not be overlooked as his best killing move, killing as low as 50%. Also noting that the neutral attack can lead into a fire punch with almost no DIing possibilities that i have found. -Luigi's down smash and side smash have impressive range and both come out very quickly, his down smash also occasionally hooks people back t words Luigi for comboing. -Luigi's up-b, down-b, and side-b all give him a variety of recovery methods which makes him unpredictable, as well as gets him a lot of distance.

This is why I don't prefer tiers
It starts a whole arguement. A lot of users have their own tiers. Just because your good with one character doesn't mean everybody is. And before somebody goes psycho on me and starts swearing uncontrollably at me because i have a tier on my user page, I would like to say that I don't care about tiers, I just made one for fun. YOu'll see that I basicly put who I play as in high tiers while every character I don't care about doesn't even have a proper place on my tier. Why do people get so intense when it comes to tiers, the SBR is just calculating their abilities and their tournemant results. If you're extremely good with a character, then you can win with them, just because they're low tier doesn't mean that that character is completely unplayable in tournemants. If you have enough skill with a character, you can win, it doesn't matter what tier they are. And before you start flaming me because I state in my user page that i don't go to tournemants, I apoligize for not knowing the exact properties of a tournament, I'm just stating my opinion, which is what forums are for.Oh, and I can't spell tournemant/tournament/whatever.Smorekingxg456 (talk) 22:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This list is just showing who is best on a simple, flat stage with no items and against only one person. Meta Knight doesn't work off of distraction in 3 player games, he IS the distraction. It's hard to edgeguard more than one person at a time. Besides, this is just an "overused character in tournaments" list. If everyone using the same character, of course that character will win. Besides, the only thing that matters is skill and mastery. Meta Knight and Snake are one of the easiest characters to master. And come on people. This is just a party game...Why aren't there Mario Party tournaments? Cafinator (talk) 22:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * kind of what i was getting at...Smorekingxg456 (talk) 23:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * tl;dr