Talk:Tier list/Archive 4

'''We understand that tiers are a point of contention among members of the Smash community. However, this page discusses the tier-lists that the Smash Back Room (for Melee and Brawl) and the GameFAQs forums (for the original) have posted. These are accepted by almost every high level player and as such are important and notable content to this wiki. Discussion on this talk page should be limited to the content of the page, not a debate on the existence or ordering of tiers. Those should both be addressed in the Forums (Forum for Brawl, forum for Melee).

Falcon's Wrong Numerical Value
I'm actually surprised many people haven't noticed yet, but the list here is actually incorrect with the SBR Official Final Melee Tier List. Captain Falcon is tied with a numerical value of 8.00 with Jigglypuff. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199342 - x After Dawn x

Double Tier
Shouldn't there be two tier lists, one for one on one tournaments and one for co-op tournaments? anyone agree? 20:14 10th of Februry 2009
 * A lot of people say that. The problem is that there are so many character  combinations for the tier list.  Y462 (T • C  • E ) 19:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Bias
I don't mean to cause any trouble here, but after thouroughly reading this article, it appears that the editor has a biased opinion towards tiers. With such a debated subject, shouldn't you be a bit more neutral? ¿Roderigo? (talk) 02:28, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No. They are quite real, as any Smash professional will tell you. How people interpret them and if they care are their own decisions, but their existence is hard to deny.  Miles ( talk)   02:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, then. I really don't mind either way; I just go with any character I want, regardless if they're the best or the worst. ¿Roderigo? (talk) 02:50, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Why can't everyone be like you? Every day we get tier-haters who go on a rant about how tiers ruin the fun of the game. You, on the other hand, get it -- play as whoever you want, because that's what makes the game fun. Miles ( talk)   03:09, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, what those people are doing is making a huge misunderstanding. They think that by making tiers that people are threatening some kind of "free choice" when it comes to characters. The truth is, it's the player with the controller, not the character. Once somebody learns a new trick with say, Mewtwo, Mewtwo may be number one some day. I'm not a big supporter of tiers myself, but I understnad that they do exist. ¿Roderigo? (talk) 18:52, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * ^ person is smart. I like him already. --Sky (t · c · w) 19:22, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Split?
I have a bit of a feeling that this page should just cover what a tier list is and some of the other general things about it. Then we could have "Tier list (SSB)" and the like that could go into more detail on why that list has the order it does (from the SBR's reasoning). Any thoughts? Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 03:45, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * May you get into further detail as to what you want to do? Y462 (T • C • E ) 04:06, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As long as you can get SBR's reasoning, then it's worth considering. Giving reasoning to anything here is gonna start a war, though.  Also, does someone know the system SBR uses to make the tiers? Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 05:22, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Tournament play, genius.  Blue Ninjakoopa Talk 18:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Matchups and Tournament records. - Hatake91 (talk) 22:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I meant how they weight everything, and their numbers system. I don't know if anyone knows that, but...   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 23:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Explanations
I think that the article should include a decent explanation on why the characters are in the tiers that they are in. For example, I don't know why Meta Knight and Snake are so high, and I think that the page should explain why general consensus says that Meta Knight is the best. Madara uchiha99 (talk), Kanji: うちは マダラ 九十九, Romaji: Uchiha madara kyū-jū-kyū 17:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * We have the links to the SBR threads. Most of the discussion and information is there.  We also put some of it for each character on their fighter pages.  There would just be too much information to make it work on this one page.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 17:34, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

WTF?
OMG 1: Ness and Lucas tied on SSBB OMG 2: What, Fox on SSBM isn't 10.0? It's 9.9!? Willneverbeapro (talk) 04:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Forums. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 04:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Ahh. Willneverbeapro (talk) 06:13, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

stupid
very stupid they are.....tr4qs
 * Forums please. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 23:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Japanese Tier List
New tier Japan list http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231731 Firewario (talk) 19:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC) Ca LOL!! Majorabrawl (talk) 02:44, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not the Japanese tier list, it's just your revision. Next time, take it to the forums plz.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  17:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Forums?
What forums, and where? Hyper Zergling (talk) 19:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Here are the links to the Brawl tier list thread and the Melee tier list thread. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 19:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Metagame
I agree to the statement about players using only top tiered characters; thus, enforcing the list. List like this are just based on tournaments and how players rank each character. I personally think that R.O.B. should be the top player even though i don't use him. This list is just a majority of player's opinions. PlasmaVice (talk) 03:29, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This talk page is for discussion about the tier list page. If you want to discuss tiers in general, please click on one of the forum links at the top of the page. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 20:58, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

"The fifth argument, called the recursive argument, is invalid because it does not account for the large variation among professionals. At least for Melee, while the tiers were in place, professionals still played their best medium, and not always who was top tier. Some players are dedicated low tier professionals. Still, through all this, the clear majority of tournament victories in Melee went to Fox/Falco, Marth and Sheik. The recursive argument may in fact have some validity but its reach is insufficient to disprove the existence of tiers, it merely says that the existence of a tier list affects metagame, leaving unproved the follow up that characters are balanced and the tier list corrupts that balance. Indeed, to derive such an assumption from the argument would be a fallacy." Ripped from my treatise. Semicolon (talk) 03:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

What about the Jamaican tier list?
I heard a rumor that the Jamaicans had their own tier list...or maybe it was the Chechnyians? Or the Portugalians. Whoever. So it goes something like this:

... ... ... This part is long and boring. The bottom goes like this:
 * Squirtle
 * Charizard
 * Ganondorf
 * Sonic (personally I think he's too high)
 * Mario
 * Falco
 * King Dedede
 * Sheik
 * Luigi
 * ZSS

I also heard a rumor that there's a secret character in the game, but he's bottom tier. Of course, you never really can trust Jamaicans. 13375poolR (talk) 05:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * WTF is that supposed to mean, "You can never really trust Jamaicans?" Racist turd.
 * It was probably just a joke - a joke in extremely poor taste, and the sort of joke that's not really appropriate here, but a joke nonetheless. I would like to add that, no matter how righteous your anger was, your response to it was also inappropriate. In other news, that's one made up tier list... There's no way Ganondorf would be that high. He's got so many massive weaknesses that no one in their right mind would put him anywhere other than last. Sonic has no strong, reliable finishing moves. Mario's down tilt and his down special are both rubbish. Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon being that high is just laughable. King Dedede's clearly very good, no one would honestly put him that low. Sheik's strong and fast and has very good smashes, the same goes for ZSS, and Luigi got buffed from Melee so now he's better than Mario by a long way. This supposed tier list is the result of pure fabrication, nothing more. Also, the idea that there are still secret characters in Brawl that no one's discovered yet is simply ridiculous.  Penguin  of  Death   10:00, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I like Ganondorf and am happy to know that some others agree with me when I say he isn't bad, but Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon being on the top? Give me a break.

Ganondorf number three in Bob Marley country? SWEET. DRTJR (talk) 19:46, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Full protection
Looking through the history, I noticed several vandals, even with the semi-protection. A full protection seems to be necessary, and if there is any information to the article, it can be posted on the talk page and an admin can put it in if they feel it is necessary. Smoreking (T)  (c)  20:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Official tier list
And what about the Prima's tier list?

Prima official game guide
Majorabrawl (talk) 08:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Besides the fact that Prima is stupid and official tier list refers to the Smash Back Room, that is their tier list. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 02:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Marth is severely overrated. And Prima is retarded.--Lazer81095 (talk) 06:22, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to hear anyone EVER say Sonic sucks again for as long as they live.
This.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  02:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I do disagree, although there must be an element of truth to this, because i do respect you over many players. Explain your oppinion

---Marqoose

Lucas
I really don't understand why lucas is considered such a bad character. I've heard that he's the most complicated character in the game and i completely agree with that. He has the highest jump in the game for one (Zap Jumping) and his recovery move can go in any direction. PSI magnet is also a great atttack because when timed right it can not only absorb energy based attacks, but can deflect almost every physical attack (not to mention excellent knock back). He also has a very slow falling speed and great arial combat moves. Can someone explain?

---Marqoose

Extremely long ground break animation allowing infinites in walls or Marth without walls. It also leaves him open for certain attacks. His strongest attacks (up and down smash) are laggy if he misses. Recovery is also a problem cause it leaves him vulnerable to attacks. But overall grab releases gives most problems to him in competitive play. Firewario (talk) 21:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's mainly the infinite grab-release thing that Marth has on him. That and his recovery can (at times) be somewhat unreliable.  I for one also agree that Lucas deserves to be bumped up, but Lucas isn't the most complicated character in the game, not by a longshot.  Most people would agree that that title belongs to Snake.  Oh, and can you sign your posts with ~ right after your messages?   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 21:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No, Marth has nothing to do with Lucas' position on this list (which I believe is currently based on agility), but I do agree that Lucas should at least be in the D section. He has plenty of killing power, speed isn't a major problem (f-smash is quick and can kill at early percentages), and he's almost medium weight. His flaws, however, although there are few, are quite serious. He's floaty, meaning he is easily juggled, has an unorthodox recovery, and his most powerful moves are extremely slow (with extremely large hitboxes). I may not be fully correct, so you should ask this guy why Lucas sucks.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  23:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Something like this should be in the forums. Y462 (T • C • E ) 00:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Really i don't believe that being "floaty" is a bad thing, being juggled in brawl is a very easy thing to get out of. and PK 2 is very reliable, it just takes alot of practice. it can also take out snakes fan which helps me alot (my friend uses snake) HOW IS SNAKE MORE COMPLICATED THSN LUCAS?!? Still, no matter wat, i still am awesome at using lucas.

---Marqoose
 * You're not really paying attention or bothering to find out why Lucas sucks, but you're now claiming to be "awesome" with him? Try looking it up on Smash boards, and maybe fighting people who aren't bad at playing Brawl.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  19:41, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Am i in denial, or are you in denial that sonic sucks

Yoshi and MetaKnight
My friend told me that every character has a "Weakness" (not like in pokemon with it's super effective! more like certain moves can contradict the opponents) and that Yoshi was superior to Metaknight, but (but that doesn't mean he should be higher tier than metaknight, he's not that good against most other characters) is there an element of truth here? does that mean there should be a tier cycle instead?

---Marqoose

MK is by far the best character in the game, has absolutely no disadvantage matchups, though some are even. Yoshi is a very middle tier character. Firewario (talk) 18:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * When did Yoshi become a middle tier character?  Blue  Ninjakoopa  19:44, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

That's not what i meant though, the point wasn't about yoshi being low tier or metaknight being high. It was some characters may have weaknesses Marqoose (talk)
 * That isn't exactly true to be honest. Your "friend" is, unfortunately, lying to you.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  19:44, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

The possibility that there could be an element of truth here (He believes everything he hears though, i was verifying it).
 * Dude, sign your comments. Oh, and I've also heard that Yoshi gives MK some problems, but I don't know why.  I would think that someone who could WoP easily would own Yoshi every time.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 03:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The fact that Yoshi has super armor during his second jump makes him much more resistant to WOP than most other characters. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 17:09, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Last time I checked, SWF was saying that the match-up between Yoshi and MetaKnight is 60:40 to 65:35 MK's favor. Y462 (T • C • E ) 04:49, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I have a question...
My question is:

When will be available the next tier list for Super Smash Bros Brawl? This is the only question and I hope the date is soon. Thanks

--TwinR.O.B. (talk) 01:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You didn't have to space your post out so much ¬_¬™ Anyway to answer your question, I'd give it at least 2 months or so (the brawl tier lists seem to come out every 5 months or  so, at least so far).  However, this process might be sped up a bit because of that HUGE Genesis tournament (I think that's what it's called) that just happened.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 02:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Why are there images instead of text?
Why are the character's images in the tier list? The page is better when the characters in the tier lists are in text.
 * Ok


 * 1) They're changeable
 * 2) Sign your posts
 * 3) So an idiot does not put his favorite on top
 * all three have been have been by DRTJR (talk) 22:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ewww... Bad formatting - don't leave spaces at the start of lines, and if you want the whole of your comment to be indented, place : at the start of each new line.
 * If someone doesn't sign a comment, put at the end of the comment. You can find out their username and the time and date from the page history.
 * I don't get how using pictures instead of text prevents people from changing the order in the tier list (especially seeing as the templates are protected). The change to pictures instead of text was made so that it looked more attractive. The text looked boring, whereas the pictures are vibrant and colourful.
 *  Penguin  of  Death   22:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It was easier to read the list when there was text instead of pictures. I also think that it looks better with text instead of pictures.--Poodoas (talk) 05:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to agree. At first, it does seem more attractive with the pictures, but function comes before attractiveness.  It is too difficult to read, and it's also hard to see the delineations between tiers.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 18:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's probably possible to use thick borders to differentiate the tiers, but I tried using colours instead because it would be a lot easier to create and edit. (I used faded colours because people complained before about bright colours - maybe such would be better here?) Of course, I would also argue that the tiers themselves don't really matter - only the order of the characters overall matters. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  20:15, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Pokémon Trainer
I actually don't know why Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard are ranked as a single player instead of each one. TwinR.O.B. (talk) 23:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * when you die they become a difernt pokemon insead of like sheik staying as sheik DRTJR (talk) 23:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Plus, stamina forces you to have to switch them out or suffer weaker attacks. Of course, you could always play Brawl+...  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 18:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Points on Brawl Tier list
The other ones have little point values next to each character which I think represents number of tourneys won with that character (in relation to the other characters). But what about Brawl? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7537861#post7537861 ^Most recent Tier, featured on this page. Look at the bottom section. Character		Average HIGH Meta Knight		1 Snake			1 Wario			1 Diddy Kong		1.03 Falco			1.03 King Dedede		1.03 Mr. Game & Watch	1.03 Marth			1.08 R.O.B.			1.14 Olimar			1.17 Pikachu			1.17 Ice Climbers		1.33 Kirby			1.36

MID Lucario			1.61 Zero Suit Samus		1.81 Toon Link		1.89 Donkey Kong		1.92 Pit			1.92 Peach			2.06 Sheik			2.11 Wolf			2.14 Luigi			2.19 Fox			2.28 Zelda			2.33 Bowser			2.53 Sonic 			2.56

LOW Ike			2.61 Pokémon Trainer		2.64 Lucas			2.86 Ness			2.86 Mario			2.89 Jigglypuff		2.94 Link			2.97 Yoshi			2.97 Captain Falcon		3 Ganondorf		3 Samus			3

Should these points be added? Paradox Juice (talk) 19:51, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Olimar spelled wrong, links to wrong page.
Can someone edit this?
 * The problem has been fixed. Y462 (T • C  • E ) 23:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

New SSB tier list
There's a new tier list for SSB. I've tried to find sources but I've only run into forum posts and this matchup chart. Does anyone know anything about this? capefeather (talk) 02:38, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

This has been confirmed: This is the new tier list: Top Tier (1)Pikachu * (2)Fox

High Tier (3)Kirby (4)Falcon (5)Mario

Middle Tier (6)Yoshi (7)DK

Low Tier (8)Jigglypuff (9)Ness

Bottom Tier (10)Luigi (11)Link (12)Samus


 * Pikachu is considered good enough to be in even a separate tier than fox. Pikachu is either placed in a separate tier or with Fox.

And your source is..? Miles ( talk)  00:19, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

| I'll just leave this here...

Also, it's official! Ness is the 2nd worst overall in Smash ever, yay!75.117.8.167 00:55, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with SmashBoards; is t3h Icy a SBR member? It needs the SBR approval to get on this page. Miles ( talk)   02:16, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * t3h Icy has no icon stating he's a SBR guy, so presumably he isn't. And I don't think anyone has enough time to look through the 69-page discussion and pick out how many BRoomers were in on it. That said, anything recent from SmashBoards may be more relevant than an old and undocumented list fom GameFAQs. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  02:32, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

ssb64 has no backroom. This new tier list is the general consensus of the ssb64 forum. -ballin4life 128.12.54.70 05:34, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

As ballin4life said, ssb64 has no back room. We are currently deciding whether to add one. This tier list has been conceded by the top smash 64 players. Our community is different from the brawl one, since we include online smash (as in netplay using project 64k, mupen64k, and p2p.) This tier list has been accepted by tthe top smash 64 people. Also, I don't know why the gamefaqs post was used, as there are 0 top players on there and the top ssb64 player (as in Isai, Tigerbombz, SuperBoomFan, Alancitu, and others) are on smashboards. Calling it a gamefaqs decision is off at best. User:KoRoBeNiKi
 * That's good enough for me. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  12:56, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

what about kirby
I know he is pretty high in brawl, but I think he should be higher. I'm an amateur player so can someone please tell my why he's so bad? I know he's light, but a strategy I use is to float above opponents and then use stone. It does very high knockback and damage. Also, his hammer in the air seems pretty fast and powerful. Can someone please help me out here?