User talk:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers

Protection
I hope you don't mind that I took the liberty of protecting this page. It's pretty much expected for trouble to pop up here. If there are any problems, don't hesitate to contact me. FyreNWater - (Talk • Contributions ) 01:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for being on top of this, Rita. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 01:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Well Done
I have to say, this is quite logical and well-stated. However, there are a couple of things you might need to take into account. 1) The First Brawl Tier List was compiled not only of tournament results, but also of Matchup potential. This means that it's likely to be more variable than Melee and 64 tier lists, but it invalidates (at least partially) one of your "Counter-arguments". 2) This page is very wordy, and uses a fairly advanced level of vocabulary. Many of the intended audience (people who disbelieve tiers exist) likely will have trouble sitting through all this and/or comprehending it all. 3) It should probably be stated somewhere that tiers are designed to discuss implications in Balanced Play, aka Tournament Play, aka 1 vs 1, Items off, Stages restricted to those deemed "Neutral". In play without these descriptions, Character Choice and even play skill take a backseat to events beyond the players' control (or beyond an individual's control, such as being double-teamed or interrupted while comboing/edgeguarding). --Wildfire393 (talk) 02:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The point on match-up potential was calculated in all of the tier lists, but that doesn't invalidate our argument. The argument is not that match-ups are irrelevant to the tier list, but simply that a character being above another does not inherently imply that the match up is in favor of the higher tier character.  For example, many people argue that (in Melee) tiers don't exists because Marth is a good match-up on Fox but Fox is higher.  Well, that's true, but Fox is better against more characters than Marth is, ergo Fox is a higher tier character.  However, it is important to note that match-ups still do factor into tiers.  For example, Mewtwo has, on paper good things going for him:  a reliable chain grab, great recovery,  powerful throws, projectiles and ways to deal with projectiles, good strength, and a great wavedash.  So why isn't Mewtwo a high tier character?  Quite simply, almost every other character in the game is able to take advantage of him and his match-ups are quite poor.  This is the paradox of the tier list:  it doesn't describe individual match-ups, but it is the best indicator of overall match-up potential.
 * As for the advanced vocabulary, this is what happens when you put a linguist and a music theorist together... Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 04:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Right, I withdraw my comment about the Matchups, I had misread the page the first time. I thought it was saying that Tournament results were the only determining factor and that Matchups were not taken into account, when really it was saying "just because one character can beat another, it deosn't mean that the first character is higher placed than the second". Anyways, you should still probably address the third point I brought up: The tier lists given are tier lists for a specific ruleset and a specific metagame. If the given ruleset or even the given metagame does not apply, then the tier list should be disregarded, and also your input to the tier list doesn't really have any bearing. --Wildfire393 (talk) 05:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

This might be worth posting to SmashBoards (minus the "SLAPAHO" part...) &mdash; I particularly enjoyed the debunking of the variety of responses this type of treatise might have. That section, however, could also use some strengthening: Go into the possible responses to their responses, and then further debunk those. --Sky (t · c · w) 16:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. We're still trying to get it completed (such as adding the points you mentioned).  Once we do, we probably will post it to the Smash Boards.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 16:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Did this ever happen? :) --Sky (t · c · w) 17:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, this has definately made me approve of tiers. But, the last section, where the rock paper scissors style is mentioned, this made me think-why tier lists, why not tier charts? Paradox Juice (talk) 22:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Official?
Would you approve (and the community, as well) of making this the official SmashWiki stance on the existence of tiers? That way we can make it the site's statement, not just yours. You (meaning SLAPAHO) would of course receive credit as the authors. Miles ( talk)  23:57, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not our job to rule on it. Let the SBR officially haggle it out with the naysayers. --Sky (t · c · w) 17:43, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I meant more that we approve this as the "SmashWiki Treatise on the Existence of Tiers, coauthored by SLAPAHO members Foghorn and Ax". Miles ( talk)   18:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It is decidedly SLAPAHOs and not SmashWiki's; while I think it provides an excellent defense against the naysayers, it isn't SmashWiki's to claim as in own, even giving credit to the authors, due to the fact that SmashWiki doesn't care about the disputes; only that they exist. --Sky (t · c · w) 18:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * *sigh* Very well, Sky. Miles ( talk)   21:57, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea, but I suppose the authors need to give the o.k. Smoreking (T)  (c)  17:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Request
Can you please rub this in the face of the next idiot to insult/criticize the tier list? KTHNXBAI.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  03:41, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Userbox
For any users who thinks that tiers ruin the game and/or tiers must die, here's the userbox you need.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Alex (talk • contribs)

Um. I think that's gonna be a tough sell sitting on the talk page of the thing that proves tiers exist :(. Semicolon (talk) 21:10, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Minor question
In the "Arguments in opposition" section, should the argument "Because the tier list changes so often, tiers must not exist" be added? Please note that I do not agree with this argument (I believe in tiers), but I feel that some people do. 71.29.15.99 23:53, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see how you counter that specific argument as well. Miles ( talk)   04:19, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I would rephrase the statement like this:
 * "If the tier list were correct, it would not have to change. The tier list changes. Therefore, the tier list must be wrong. If something is wrong, it is useless. Therefore, there is no point to the tier list existing."
 * Then the rebuttal would be:
 * "The tier list is based on the metagame. The metagame changes. Therefore, the tier list must change to remain correct."
 * Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  14:35, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

All right, here it goes. First of all, I will counter the assumption that if the tier list is wrong in anyway it is useless. Compare this to a governmental budget. It is impossible for the budget to ever be perfect for a long period of time simply because of the multitude of variables involved that can not possibly be properly projected. But good agencies come close enough that the budget is useful, basically until it isn't. Then we get a new one. That's what we do with the tier list. We make one that works well enough given the information we have now and when it doesn't work, we work on a new one. Second, I will argue that unlike a budget, we're not creating a tier list so much as we are reporting on it. It's not being said, Meta Knight is the best character, go play him. Instead, we report on the fact that Meta Knight has been shown to be the best character. Therefore, it is completely plausible that we are reporting that things have changed since we last reported. Three, the tier list doesn't change all that often. There have only been nine lists (one of which was a hoax) from the SBR for Melee, and that game was released in 2001. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 18:15, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

What about the "Tier lists are based on the player's skill, not the characters ability" argument? 58.107.230.245 06:53, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the definition of a tier list disregards players skill as a factor of tier inclusion, just generally. A tier list assumes equal skill from players. I believe we wrote in the treatise that player skill is the most important factor in the outcome of a game. In fact, I don't believe that anything else even comes close. Tiers are meant as pretty good predictors of who will win given somewhat equal skill, with the tier differential marginally compromising for the skill differential at times. And you can't react account for player skill in tier lists. There are some really bad people who play Pit, and some really good people who play Pit. How do you average that, or survey it, or make anything useful of that information at all? It's the same for every character. Every character has good players and bad players, so even talking about player skill generally can't add anything to a discussion of who the best innate characters are. Semicolon (talk) 16:08, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Nerds
wow i had no idea that people existed like this that actualy think 'tiers' are important, its crazy o.0 ive been reading this out-loud to my friends and theyre laughing by how serious the writter of the article is. it speaks as if these are real politics rather than a childrens video game. im really really amazed that someone took the time to write such a pointless article that has probably been read all of 4 times, let alone taken the time do do hours of research for nothing.
 * You do realize that you're an idiot, right? Do you think this was difficult for me? It's all obvious stuff that stupid scrubs like yourself are unable to understand, which is why I have to write it down. I'm doing it for you. Know why? Because I care. If by 'hours of research' you mean 'I don't know wtf I'm talking about' then yes, you're right. There isn't research involved here. Where do you see facts and figures? And also, we can check how many times the page has been viewed, and guess what? It's not four. And guess what? Your friends are stupid too. Before any of you say anything else, yes, I'm trolling again, but here's why: this comment was unacceptable. It was ignorant and self-righteous and had the kind of attitude that I have taken upon myself to punish in this ass-end of the internet. Will it do any good? You can bet your ass it won't, but I feel good doing it. And as for you, author of this abhorrent crap, grow up. Semicolon (talk) 23:03, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know if you are aware, but there are people who take games very seriously and play them for money. You know how kids play hockey for fun, but adults dedicate their lives to making tons of dough at the professional level? If you aren't one of those who intend to play the game at a competitive level, then serious analysis (i.e. tiers) doesn't apply to you, and you can feel free to ignore such. But don't call people "nerds" just because they're taking something more seriously than you are. Everyone's a "nerd" (in this context, engrossed in a subject to the point of it being a very large part of life) at something, right? Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  15:08, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly. How is playing SSB competitivly different from chess tournys? Would you call a chess grandmaster a "nerd"? 98.117.158.220 00:49, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say a grandmaster at anything would be "engrossed in a subject to the point of it being a large part of life."  Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 01:02, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, if that's the definition of a nerd... well, Brawl isn't a stupid game. 98.117.158.220 02:32, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not the exact definition of a "nerd"; I'd say it's more of a "geek", although many people blur the terms (along with "dork"). But that doesn't matter; the point is that some people take certain stuff seriously, even though one may think such is wasteful. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  02:44, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

football anology
Your football anology does not work that well. The black team would have a harder time seeing their opponents, but the white team would have a harder time finding their teammates. You should find another anology.
 * One would presume that the player is fully aware of the character he is using, and that his actions generally do not respect being entirely aware of the positions of his teammates outside of the passing game, where his targets are marked by controls. Semicolon (talk) 04:30, April 4, 2010 (UTC)