Forum:The Tier List, version 2

New tier list. Discuss. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 22:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Old comments

 * I already started a section on the old topic, but oh well. Lots of changes in the tier below top in this one. Every old high tier got moved, with Marth and Diddy getting to A Tier, DK and Wolf moving down and so on.- Hatake91 (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Why on earth did ZSS go up 5? Ness and Lucas should be at least C.

Once again. Jigglypuff went down, not happy. Ice climbers went down, not happy. Falco went up, happy. Wolf went down, not happy. Y462 (T • C • E ) 22:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

YEAH!!!! Peach went up!!! Shes in the exact middle if you take the numbers away! JtM =^&#93; (talk) 23:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Ya know, Im gonna make my own page with commentary on this. Go here to see my views.  Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 00:19, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm really not liking the Sonic Riders-style "SS Tier" bit; what was wrong with High, Mid, Low? Anyways, Kirby's up one, which I like. Falco went up, which I like. Marth is back on the top, but R.O.B. going down disappoints me. Wario's too high for his own good (Wario for bottom tier!). Olimar's skyrocket was expected. Wolf shouldn't have gone down. Luigi should have gone down, Zelda up. Link's finally gone up! Ness and Lucas are going the wrong way, and that's all I have to say.--Meta-K (talk) 00:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

IMO, this version is a little better. R.O.B. and Wolf can no longer be targeted by scrubs as "cheap" now that they're low enough, but unfortunately, neither can Pit. I wish Mario and Ness would be placed in their rightful places, which is the 'C' tier, being that they have balanced attributes. Then again, their terrible recoveries would bring them to the 'D' ranking. I'm amazed at Olimar's placement O.o His recovery is terrible, as it doesn't grab the ledge 100% of the time, and he's very light, but he does have fast, strong smashes and aerials as well as outstanding speed. I also see how Ganondorf and C. Falcon haven't moved >.>  Blue  Ninjakoopa  00:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Tier listing doesn't mean that scrubs will still call characters cheap. I'm actually a bit surprised that ZSS and Olimar went up, and Pokemon Trainer went down.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 00:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What? I'm saying that the common scrub will call anything cheap so long as it's associated with a high tier character, and you should know that by now. If a scrub calls a lower tier character cheap, then that scrub should then be known as a n00b. ZSS is really good, actually.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  00:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Scrubs come in all shapes and sizes. Don't be discriminatory against the scrubs who call low tier characters cheap lol!  ZSS isn't as good as Toon Link.  Or Pit.  Or Wolf   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 01:05, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * lol  Blue  Ninjakoopa  01:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure that there are plenty of non-n00b scrubs out there who have whined about stuff like this at least once, which has nothing to do with tiers. But yes, I do agree with CP (I used to like ZSS, but I find Samus is actually better now). Toon Link should be higher.--Meta-K (talk) 01:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Toon Link is floaty, light, and easily juggled, and of course you agree with 'CP'. :roll:  Blue  Ninjakoopa  01:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Sonic and Link went up but, only by a couple of places. Still, at least they went up. Unknown the   Hedgehog  02:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Not many complaints from me, really. MK and Snake are broken beyond all imagination so yeah...it's nice to see Falco up higher IMO, and Marth and Diddy needed that boost. Wario really should've gone down, and idk why R.O.B. did. Olimar shot WAAAY up, which is suprising but not all that bad I guess. Kirby needs to be even higher but it's cool that he got bumped up, but I wonder what caused DK and IC to drop so much? ZSS shot up which is cool, and Pit got brought down like he deserves :D. Why Wolf got lowered is beyond me, and the same goes for Bowser. Fox got lowered AGAIN lol. WTH how did Lucas tie with Ness? I can't belive Sonic went up and PT went down, but Samus did deserve to go upwards some. Yay Link went up, but Gdorf went down D: Shade  487  z / Senior  Sombra!  02:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Finally, Meta Knight and Snake are separated from the rest. But I don't think that Snake should get his own tier, he should be with MK. I'm glad that Falco and Olimar moved up, and Kirby got a bump. However, I'd still like to see the Mother boys get bumped up to at least E tier. - Masq  (t/c/e) 02:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I expected Dedede to fall and Olimar to rise, but I though Wolf would've gotten higher if anything.E123 Brawler  Ω  02:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

What the hell does everyone have against Sonic? Ok, so he's not a Nintendo character. BIG DEAL. Sheesh...  Blue  Ninjakoopa  03:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not bashing on him. And it's just opinions really. I think Sonic is FTW in Brawl, while others disagree. Just like I think Mewtwo in Melee is FTW and again others will disagree. Unknown the   Hedgehog  03:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * They both suck. Yeah, some people can elevate characters like Mewtwo and Sonic to high levels of play, but normally they both suck. Shade  487  z / Senior  Sombra!  03:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * lol that's your opinion, since they do not "suck", as you put it so harshly. Watch Taj's Shadowclaw videos on YouTube, then look at some Sonic combo vids later, so you can see that they have potential. I'm not taking any offense, I simply stating a fact. I agree with Unknown the Hedgehog as well. IMO, Pikachu sucks. That failure rat...  Blue  Ninjakoopa  03:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Shade proved my point about others disagreeing. Unknown the   Hedgehog  03:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No! They don't "normally" suck! I don't understand what everyone has against Sonic, but if you have a little grudge over a video game character, then you have a serious problem. "You" wasn't directed to anyone.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  03:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't believe Link is that low. Unknown the   Hedgehog  03:53, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Trust me, if you play Scatz's Yoshi or Izaw's Link, you'll start a riot lol  Blue  Ninjakoopa  03:56, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Pluses and minuses
Here are the differences in places between the old tier list and the new one...
 * 1) Meta Knight 0
 * 2) Snake 0
 * 3) Falco +2
 * 4) King Dedede -1
 * 5) Mr. Game & Watch -1
 * 6) Marth +1
 * 7) Diddy Kong +4
 * 8) Wario 0
 * 9) R.O.B. -3
 * 10) Lucario -1
 * 11) Olimar +7
 * 12) Pikachu 0
 * 13) Kirby +1
 * 14) Donkey Kong +4
 * 15) Ice Climbers -2
 * 16) Zero Suit Samus +5
 * 17) Toon Link 0
 * 18) Pit -3
 * 19) Peach +5
 * 20) Wolf -4
 * 21) Luigi +2
 * 22) Zelda -2
 * 23) Bowser -1
 * 24) Fox -5
 * 25) Sheik +1
 * 26) Ike -1
 * 27) Mario +2
 * 28) Lucas -1
 * 29) Ness -1
 * 30) Samus +1
 * 31) Sonic +2
 * 32) Pokémon Trainer -2
 * 33) Yoshi -1
 * 34) Link +2
 * 35) Jigglypuff -1
 * 36) Ganondorf -1
 * 37) Captain Falcon 0 Unknown  the   Hedgehog  04:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice job =)  Blue  Ninjakoopa  04:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

The fact is that just because some people have the ability to "not suck" with low tier characters does not mean that they are inherently not worse than the others. Here, the term suck is used relativistically. Take the 0-16 Detroit Lions. Most football followers would tell you that they "suck." And they do. They are (this year) the worst team in the NFL. Yet they could still kick the living daylights out of most college programs. So they are better than many other people, yet with respect to who they are compared to they are terrible. Same with these low tier characters. And I'm glad someone pointed out Taj and Shadowclaw before I did. I'd also like to point out that Taj plays Marth and/or Fox in all of his major games. Tiers exist, some characters suck, some people show cool stuff with them, and then the top tiers win. That's life. Or really, that's Smash Bros. Ultimately, it's just a game. Play Charizard, have a good laugh, make some money if you can, but this ain't gonna get you laid... Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 04:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, you certainly put it in a nicer way than Shade did, no offense to him. I concur entirely.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  04:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I do think highly of meta Knight and Snake, and I do appreciate there presence as the top tiered characters. But, I don't really "care" about tier lists. Tier lists can be innaccurate because of the fact that they reflect tournament wins. You also need to consider the fact that the players are sometimes unknown and their skill is undeterminable. But, I do have some things for tier lists. no matter what the tier list says, I'll forever main Kirby. Anyways, I think...


 * Kirby should be a higher, possibly within the top ten.
 * R.O.B. should be dropped out of the top ten.
 * Jigglypuff should be last!
 * Ganondorf and Capt. Falcon should be a LOT higher.

SapphireKirby777 (talk) 19:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Four Words: Worst. Tier list. Ever.--User:Mudkipz (talk) 15:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Any particular reason why MK and Snake have their own seperate tiers? Those SB people could've saved a lot of time and effort by placing them at the top of the A rank, providing seven tiers instead of nine. And why is there such a big difference in number of tiers this time around? The first version had four, but this one has nine? That makes zero sense. And why letters? What's wrong with Top, High, Middle, etc.? I swear, they continue to confuse me more and more as revisions are made to this list. That also expands to where the characters are placed, but I think I'll keep that to myself. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 22:35, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Meta Knight is loleasy  Blue Ninjakoopa Talk 22:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's because the characters need to have a set amount of points to be in a certain tier? NProbably, which is why Snake and MK have their own, because no one has a # as close. -ACDCGAMER (talk) 07:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Falco moved up (sweet...). By the way, should we add to the tier list article that SWF/SBR estimate that the next Brawl tier list will come out in June?  Mario Galaxy  May Guthix be with you... 23:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I didn't think C. Falcon was that bad just because he was last, but he got a 1 out 15. Too many retired Falcon players or something...  Game Geek  Heavyweights FTW/

Marth moved up!! (too bad I now suck at him...) Where can I see the details of the scores that the characters recieved? I have a few opinions that I might voice once I see the list. Is there any reason why there are so many tiers? I think that there should be around five, maybe six at most. By the way: Pikachu for Top Tier!!
 * Alexwang (talk) 23:12, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Wolf went down=FTL Masterman   20  09  19:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

New tier designations
OK, so since no one has asked so far, I guess I'll get this conversation going: why are there NINE different "tiers" this time around? The last list had a simple four (Top, High, Middle, and Low). Now, Meta Knight is practically listed as a god, Snake as a demigod, and C Falc, Ganon, Jiggles, and the Hero of Time as trash from the bottom of the dumpster in the G tier! Was it officially decided that we have to cause further tensions between those who faithfully follow tiers, those who don't believe in them, and those who simply want to improve their skill in the game, without being forced to choose a side? Can someone shed some light on this matter?--Meta-K (talk) 17:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If I had to guess (nobody really said why on Smashboards), it has to do with more characters in the game (true, the last one was like Melee's, but maybe SBR didn't think it worked well for Brawl?) and trying to further categorize the differences in ability between tiers. For example, MK and Snake are the best characters in the game, but MK is a lot better than Snake. Shade  487  z / Senior  Sombra!  17:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I asked this on the talk page for the tier list. But if you're asking what I think you're asking, the amount of professionals that main low tier character is about the same as the amount of them who use high tier characters, mostly Snake (high) and C. Falcon (low). I'd also like to reference Cheezperson's view of tiers at this point; read the G Tier section.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  20:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Numbers?
Shouldn't we add the numbers for this tier list like melee's? After all Ness and Lucas, are considered even in this tier list but smashers who don't read the actual post might get confused. - Hatake91 (talk) 01:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. Hopefully the tier list article doesn't turn out like the old weight article, where Melee's section was the one most payed attention to.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  01:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Behold!
Mr. Magical person who posted the tier list on SBR (this guy) finally gave reasoning for the new system. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it, considering how unbalanced this game is. His reasoning:


 * Gaps between tiers were relatively large
 * The spread within tiers was relatively small.
 * The particular number of tiers isn't special--that's just how the votes ended up. The majority of us believed that using a smaller number of tiers would be misleading, given the results.

So there you have it! The old formatting didn't exactly fit Brawl's roster due to a decrease in overall character balance and an increase in the number of playable characters...and Jigglypuff (lol). Shade 487  z  22:47, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The link is to the SBR I think. Smoreking (T)  (c)  22:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No, the link leads to the SWF profile of the guy who posted the tier list. btw new sig! ...kinda... Shade 487  z  22:50, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I don't have an account, so that's probably why I couldn't go there. Smoreking (T)  (c)  22:53, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Having fun trying to make GXD look stupid? >.>  Blue Ninjakoopa Talk 23:07, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It still doesn't make sense to me. What's the difference between a gap and a spread? They both measure distance between two objects (in this case, tiers), so he's basically saying that this "hole" is both too large and too small. Zero sense, my friends. -  GalaxiaD <font face="times new roman"> Talk 23:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it makes sense. The spread is the range of scores within a tier, which helped create the teirs, because the spread inside tiers is generally low. A gap is the large breaks between one character and the next- these are what created the divisions between one tier and the next. For example, the spread is the range of scores across tier B- relatively low, with a difference of .53. A gap is the difference between, say, Ike and Mario (1.35) or Yoshi and Link (1.38). The large breaks on Image:Graphicaltiers.gif are gaps; the ranges with little change are spreads. --  Shadow  crest  23:37, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Epic. Smoreking (T)  (c)  23:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for helping me explain that, Shadowcrest. Shade  487  z  00:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * * shakes head* -_-  Blue Ninjakoopa Talk 01:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I move to amend the tier list
To put the fish at SSS Tier. Contribut'd. Semicolon (talk) 05:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Congratulations, that joke just made it to the official tier thread on Smashboards thanks to me XD. Shade  487  z  06:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I move to place the Parasite Queen in the same tier. - <font face="times new roman"> GalaxiaD <font face="times new roman"> Talk 23:00, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * NO!  Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 06:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I move to place JAWSH at Z tier.  Blue Ninjakoopa Talk 11:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I move to place FD's ledge in the aforementioned SSS Tier. (it gimps easily and it shames you every time you get killed by it). IrvThaSol a.k.a Ungod  (talk to me) 00:17, 10 January 2009

Dang, Semicolon's done started a new fad...sorry, no idea from me. I don't do fads. Nerdiness FTW. Shade 487  z  03:05, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Fads are created by nerds, genius. xD  Blue Ninjakoopa Talk 03:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but by the time they're fads we've stopped doing them. Don't try to think like a nerd. Shade  487  z  05:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't trying to think like a nerd. I can't, because I'm not one. :( Someone's in a sour mood today...  Blue Ninjakoopa Talk 05:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

OH I SEE
I finally understand what the chart meant. Shadowcrest's explanation was too epic for me, but I figured out. Simplification of Shadowcrest's explanation for those of us who lack intellectual awesomeness.



The gaps in between groups indicate the next tier. For example, look at the last four (Link, Jiggs, Ganondorf, Falcon). They all seem pretty close in the length of the bar, but between Link and Yoshi, there is a noticeable difference in the length. On the tier list, that indicates the next tier. Then up to Mario, they're kind of the same, but when you get to Ike, there's a gap, and that's the next tier.

I was proud of myself, so I posted that. Feel free to make fun of me for not realizing that sooner.  Smoreking (T)  (c)  18:28, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * * makes fun of you for not realizing that sooner*  Blue Ninjakoopa Talk 18:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * * makes fun of everyone else that didn't get it* But in all seriousness, anybody ever given this any thought? Sakurai is the head honcho for Kirby games...MK and D3 are really high tier and Kirby was buffed significantly in this game. There are a lot of Kirby-themed items appearing in Brawl (dragoon, star rod, springs...yes, they're the same kind in KSS/KSSU), and a Kirby-based object (Halberd) is one of the key elements in the entire SSE. Coincidence? I don't think so. Shade  487  z  22:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What? I got it, Shade. And of course Sakurai would do that, those are his creations. :roll:  Blue Ninjakoopa Talk 00:18, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't say you were one of them. My post did not say *makes fun of everyone else because no one got it*, my post said, *makes fun of everyone who didn't get it*. Shade  487  z  02:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)