Forum:The Tier List/Archive 1

The official Tier List just came out. Discuss. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 02:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The official Most Used Characters List just came out. Discuss. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 02:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Fixed your post. Cafinator (talk) 02:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That was rude and not really an opinion on it. Consider why they're the most used. Just take a minute to wonder at all the possibilities of the why, rather than making a sarcastic remark. --Sky (t · c · w) 02:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sarcasm is one of my **Free!** services! Cafinator (talk) 02:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * we never wanted it JtM =^&#93; (talk) 02:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh heh heh. Cafinator (talk) 02:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let's try a serious post. I personally am surprised by how low sonic was, I thought he was going to be a lot higher. Pit to, if you just keep spamming as pit, you'll eventually win.Smorekingxg456 (talk) 17:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

For some reason, I didn't find it very suprising to see Captain Falcon on the bottom. - Amycats2 (talk) 17:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC) I did, the only reson hi's at the bottom is because the best guys just are good for Meta Knights type of strategy. In my opinion, the characters have different ways of winning, not different amounts of winning. Like Bowser is for close up and powerful attacks, not aerial battles, such as Meta Knight's. Captain Falcon is at the bottom because he's been used so infrequently in tournaments. I personally, cannot use Meta Knights strategy, because I prefer not to risk crashing in aerial battles. I prefer the edgeguarding tactics that captain falcon allows.Man of falcon (talk) 18:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not true. You're underestimating the creative ability of professional players. Have you SEEN what they've done? At a point in which people are even tourney-worthy, most characters are stymied by G&W. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * What I meant was that each character is as good as any of the others. It's the skill of the player that determines how strong the character is. And, personally, Captain Falcon is my best character.Man of falcon (talk) 15:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, this tier list seems very much accurate, especially the low tier. There are very few things I would change, like moving the boundaries a few (Marth seems like he could easily be Top instead of High tier, Ness and Lucas could stand to be Mid tier), and possibly moving a few characters around in their tiers by a place or two. There are a few characters that I personally would rate higher (Fox, for example, I think should be High tier instead of mid, and I'm not sure about Bowser being placed so high in Mid tier), but I am not the SBR. They know a lot more about the Metagame than I do (or anyone else here does). Remember, this is a list not just of raw potential, but also of how the characters match up against the tournament scene. DK, for example, is as high as he is because he has an advantageous matchup versus both Metaknight and Snake, as well as having decent raw potential. Sheik is likely Mid instead of low due to her ability to counter some high-tier characters if played properly. And so forth. --Wildfire393 (talk) 04:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

pagebreak
That list cannot be right.--Oxico (talk) 19:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Um, yeah. This list has some problems. Let's take a look, shall we?
 * Snake -- No way is he number 2. Try number 19 at most. He's slow, his projectiles are not that good, and his moves are laggy with modest priority.
 * Try telling that to all the pros who lost to a Snake. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Snakes lose too. Your statement doesn't even have the virtue of the reverse being false. A large number of pros play Snake, ergo, you have a large number of tournament victories with Snake. That doesn't say anything about Snake's value as a character, it says everything about the number of people who play Snake. Brawl is a very young game. The sample size is far too small. Semicolon (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you know why a large number of pros play snake competitively? Because he is a great character that allows the pros to win more. Pros are obviously going to pick the char that brings out the maximum chance of success. Granted, there might be a tier list upset like Bum's DK or a technique that revolutionizes a character's game, but until that happens, snake is top tier. With everybody else coming way later.
 * Snake's up top because of his tilts. They're like smash attacks, except faster and slightly weaker. He can control the stage using his bombs and nades. He's also one of the heaviest characters.


 * DDD -- He's number 3 because of his chain grabs. That's a stupid reason, only partly because nobody wants to see some guy just chaingrab his way through a slew of mediocre Sonics for an entire tournament. Retarded.
 * Many other characters as well. Also, minions FTW. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A silly person once said 'Not an argument.' Semicolon (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * ROB -- I still don't see why people think ROB is good. He's bad people, he's really very bad. If someone takes issue with this point, we ought to go somewhere else because I swear I can write pages about how bad ROB is.
 * Not an argument. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No, but I said I had an argument if someone wanted to hear it. Semicolon (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Have you ever played against a good ROB? He's heavy, not that slow, has a very long-ranged ftilt, has an incredible recovery that you can attack out of, and he can WOP you and return to the stage more efficiently than Jiggly.


 * Wario -- His moves are so laggy, he doesn't hit hard, he falls way too fast, he's even somewhat light. WTF is Wario doing so high?
 * He wins. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * For now. Semicolon (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * He doesn't fall THAT fast. Fast falling is actually good, it prevents others from juggling you. If you know how to use Wario, he can be pretty darn good.Template:Signatures/Tienjt0 00:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Lucario -- He's slow, laggy, and his damage dealt and priority are dependent on his own damage percentage. Bad idea? Methinks so.
 * Azen. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * What? Semicolon (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hahaha, anyway... Lucario has some quick moves, along with combo ability and powerful kill moves that have amazing range. Lucario is not only good if he's damaged, it's just that he's designed to get better as he gets closer to death, making him good for combacks ZaxYo 22:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Donkey Kong -- Don't even know what to say about this one (I'm so flabbergasted), except that Donkey has always sucked. Always. You don't mess with that kind of tradition.
 * DK got like 60 times faster and has an insanely high priority quick aerial.


 * Zelda -- She's all power without the lag, so where's the love? Her priority is extremely high, too. Her only problems are her relative weight and speed, but she doesn't deserve so far as 20th.

The rest is fine, I guess. I also think it's a bit irresponsible to release a tier list so early. I mean, when the game first came out it was fun to speculate but the BR is serious which is what's scary to me. It takes years to make an accurate tier list, and they may just have f-ed up the metagame of other characters for an awful long time by making everyone focus on their top six or seven. That's okay for me, I guess, because I have no problem newbbashing Snakes, ROBs and DDDs all day. Semicolon (talk) 20:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well Donkey Kong has horrible matchups against the others except for ironically the higher cast. For example he does pretty well against Mr Game and Watch plus he's the only matchup against meta knights thats not neutral or in meta knights favor - Hatake91 (talk) 22:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

guys, people were nagging the SBR to make one, so they had to hurrily finish it up. a new one will come out in a year. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 21:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you mostly except about R.O.B. I can write pages on how GOOD he is. I use him and can do very well, almost as good as Meta Knight. I was also expecting the Space Animals to be higher...ALOT HIGHER. I also think CF should NOT BE ON THE BOTTOM. He is fast and damages well. I can write alot more but I will hold off for now.--Oxico (talk) 21:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps then we should Brawl. I'm on C-Hawk's Wii. Are you available? Semicolon (talk) 21:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That was fast. I agree with it; Meta Knight and Snake are definitely top tier.--Richard 21:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * CF has low priority on, like, everything. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Remember that 50% is tournament listings and the other 50% is Matchups...R.O.B and DDD have good matchups but what surprises me is Meta Knight. They say he has an advantage over Marth. WRONG! Marth overmatches Meta knight in range(a big part of his advantage) and aerial game( Fair and Uair anyone?) Plus Meta knight players say his dair is incredible but Marth's is a much better and reliable killer. - Hatake91 (talk) 21:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

i dunno i think snake sould be in top tier cuz hes 3rd heavyest in the game and his attacks are fast and powerful72.197.66.113 04:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Marth gets killed by MK. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 22:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd call it neutral at best - Hatake91 (talk) 22:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

How the hell is it even possible to come up with a tier list in Brawl when the game hasn't even been out for a year? Or if the physics of the game hasn't been exploited? Well whatever, I happen to be one of those who doesn't give a damn about "tiers". I mean come on, Sonic a low tier? He's like of the cheapest characters in Brawl. Brawl Tier list are fail. Magiciandude (talk) 00:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Or if the physics of the game hasn't been exploited?" You seriously believe this? Also, Melee's list wasn't that late in its onset, either, and your not caring about tiers takes away your right to criticize them. -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

This list is a little weird. The only reason snake and meta knight are in those positions is because they are very easy to use, and they are the characters that are seen way more than others in tournaments. Snake has no business in top tier because he is too slow. Wolf is way better than that. He can take advantage of projectile spammers. He is also capable of destrying many character's ground game with his reflector. Wolf is in general very fast. Jigglypuff isn't that bad. Jigglypuff can wall of pain opponents with few troubles. Jigglypuff can also combo most characters very well with its attacks. It is also nearly impossible to chain throw.Y462 (talk) 01:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "and they are the characters that are seen way more than others in tournaments." - reread tier list please. --Sky (t · c · w) 01:19, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I know how the tier list is made if that is what you mean. I said that because that is actually what I see and hear.  I am sorry if I caused confusion. Y462 (talk) 02:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Even if there are a ton of Snakes, the fact that Snake dominated tournament finals so well suggests that he's way higher than 19th.


 * It was a non-argument to counter a non-argument. DDD's #3 only because of chain grabs? Not only does it work on many characters, but many characters also have chain grabs, so that can't be the only reason. I also gave two reasons more than you did. Now it's three, and with the disjointed hitbox, it's four.


 * Sorry, lol. But ROB is very good in tournaments. It just seemed like you were going by personal experience, you know? And theory isn't everything.


 * Nothing I have to say about Wario, lol.


 * The main reason for Lucario's placement (AFAIK) is Azen. He brought out a lot of what's good in Lucario. And the damage thing is GOOD because low-% kills rarely happen.


 * Hatake91 already handled DK, lol. -capefeather (talk) 14:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * No, it means nothing (yet). He is dominating tournament finals because (a) he's arguably the most played character (b) the game is young [i.e. metagames are not developed] and (c) some of the best players play Snake. Player skill>tier placement.
 * Well, if there are other reasons DDD belongs up top aside from his large number and widely applicable chain grabs, please, tell me. I'm dying to know.
 * It does seem like I'm going from personal experience, largely because I am. But, then again, aren't tiers decided by personal experience? Tiers are empirically decided. Without hard evidence, facts, or statistics (there are some of these, but they are entirely relative) the only way to decide things of this sort is through empirical verification. The fact that I have decided these things in this manner in no way disqualifies my opinions.
 * Yeah, but these players can probably play your main and still beat you. The point is, they know what they are talking about with either experience or research. There are some hidden factors, but until a player can change theorycraft and smack to reality, its more than likely that they are right.
 * You can't make a tier judgment based on a single player. He may have developed the metagame, but if he's the only one who can employ it, that's largely a player skill thing, and not a tier thing. And maybe I misunderstood you, but are you suggesting that Lucario is better because he rarely kills people at low damage percentages? I can't imagine that's what you mean, but that's what it sounds like.
 * I don't think you can place a character based on his matchups with (at this point) merely postulated tiers. His placement is silly. Semicolon (talk) 17:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You do have a very good point, it is way too early for a tier list in brawl. But the tier crazed fans were demanding it like crazy. Maybe the Smashwiki should develop it owns tier list? - Hatake91 (talk) 23:00, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Dude, just because Snake's slow doesn't mean he sucks. Snake isn't that slow anyway. His tilts are wicked, almost equal in power to Smash attacks, and much faster. His uptilt has huge range, and so does his ftilt. Snake can also combat projectile spammers like Falco because of his crouch and ability to crawl. And trust me, Jigglypuff is no match for Snake. Template:Signatures/Tienjt0 00:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Link is NOT the second to worst character. His only flaws are semi-poor recovery and he's a little on the slow sides. But anyone with decent smash experience can make him better than all other characters combined. He has a perfect mix on long range and melee attacks, both very strong, and he comes loaded with perks like his double side smash. Also, players that know how to time things can trap enemies in web of combos. And his final smash is much more powerful than some other wimpy characters i've seen (cough cough Meta Knight cough cough). And besides the terrible placement of Link, I see some other major flaws, like Sonic. Again, anyone who knows how to use Sonic can get damage on characters every other second while avoiding major damage to himself. Sonic has amazing recovery and is the master of areal combat. - Swordsmanr Sep. 6th

No, no, no, NO!!!
JIGGLY, NESS, AND SONIC ARE NOT LOW TIER! Para Goomba 348 (C'mon, just talk to me ) 01:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Reasoning? -capefeather (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

For one, Jiggly is among some strong characters, a small target, low crouch, is good at comboing, hard to combo, rest has flower affect AND high knockback, can make opponents fall asleep, and has the 2nd fastest air speed and slowest falling speed in the game, making her the best at recoveries in the game. Ness has strong aerials, PK Fire can edgeguard well, he can absorb projectiles, PK Flash is powerful, he is a small target, has a [relatively] low crouch, and has a meteor smash. Sonic has the fastest running speed in the game, a great comboer, up and b is really high, can use all his moves in recovery, and he is a [relatively] small target. There you have it. They should be higher. Para Goomba 348 (C'mon, just talk to me ) 16:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * See, complaints like these are the reasons why I don't give a bullfuck about tiers. "Tiers are for queers". Magiciandude (talk) 18:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The thing about tiers is that all those pro players chose snake before the tier list was made. They didn't choose him because he was top tier, they chose him because he's a cool new character with a cool new play style. I'm still gonna use Link, Bowser and Samus even though they didn't do so well with the tiers. Pro players could probably still beat me even if I used meta knight and they used jigglypuff. Players who switch their main to snake and meta night because they ended up on top of the tier list are nothing but tools. The game is about Fun after all that's what nintendo was trying to do with this game.Super G 500 (talk) 23:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Jiggly shoulld be HIGHER!!! He can do the wall of pain and he can use rising pound.Y46264Y (talk) 23:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I think MK has probably replaced Jiggly as the Wall of Pain character of choice. Better reach (sword FTW) and almost as good recovery (jumps + glide x2) just make him a better choice in most cases. –Entrea Sumatae 23:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That being said, thoguh, I bet the tier list will probably change a lot once the world gets tired with the new characters and starts using the old ones equally. This probably includes Jigglypuff's very good air game. And that last post of mine was more than a little biased: I just plain think Meta Knight is cool, and haven't played Jiggly much. –Entrea Sumatae 00:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I personally don't think that any character in brawl can replace Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff's wall of pain (in my opinion at least) is better Than MK's  because a) Jigglypuff has better air speed b) jigglypuff's aerials produces a more desireable knockback and c) Jigglypuff has better recovery.  I'm saying  this because I main Jigglypuff.  Jigglypuff has arguably the best air game in brawl. Y462 (talk) 00:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "Wall of Pain", "Fence of pain"...
 * ...Plumbing system of pain! Front lawn of pain! CEILING FAN OF PAIN!!Cafinator (talk) 00:36, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Cheez's ten cents
I mained Jigglypuff in melee, and I gotta say, no hit-stun in brawl really hurt her/him (I don't know). Anyway, I really hate this tier list! You guys can say what you want, but this list was rushed. Next time, I hope they think more about it before giving in to pressure. Cheezperson (speak to the big cheez)
 * Marth is too low. There is no way ROB (as awesome as he is) and Dedede are higher than he is.
 * Luigi below Bowser?!? What were they thinking?  One of the best aerial users in the game against one of the biggest targets in the game?
 * Toon Link, Olimar, and Zelda were my biggest surprises. All three have amazing movesets.  Yes, Olimar uses tether recovery, Zelda is kinda cheap, and Toon Link has horrid tourney results, but none of them     are below Wolf (have you tried to recover with him consistently?)
 * Lucas below Sheik is a crime. Especially because their reasoning is probably "Marth can chaingrab him."


 * Congratz on actually making some valid points. The only one I can refute is Marth. The fact that ROB has a projectile game and amazing recovery really helps him. Marth just isn't the beast he is melee, and his lack of a long range game is more of a hindrance than ever.


 * I'm going to refute "Luigi below Bowser" by again simply linking tier list. This is not about 1v1 in each and every specific case. This is about the characters' overall performance in tournaments and the state of their metagame. --Sky (t · c · w) 19:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If I read correct, the list was 50% tourney results and 50% matchups. According to my math (may be outdated), Marth should still be ahead of ROB, but not Dedede.  That may also explain Toon Link and Lucas's placements.  I forgot that this list (like mine) is more based on numbers than opinion, as it should be.  With Luigi and Bowser though, I still don't see why.  Bowser's best tactic is the Bowsercide (debatable), and Luigi can combo like Ken (who is gonna be on Survivor! WOOT!).  I've never played against, or seen, a decent Bowser user in action, and I main Luigi, so there is some bias there.  I still stand by what I said: the list was rushed, and, as a result, the list looks it.  Cheezperson  (speak to the big cheez)


 * I agree that Marth should probably be high, but I disagree that he is higher than these characters. Dedede has one of the best grab-games in the entire game, due to range, power, and chaingrabbing on most of the cast, as well as a massively advantageous weight and a decent projectile. Rob has an all-around good moveset that can outspace even Marth, in addition to a godly recovery and a good projectile game.
 * Bowser beats out luigi not because bowser beats luigi but because his results/matchups are better. Luigi has a huge disadvantage against any character with a long-ranged, disjointed htibox, which is most of the top tier.
 * TL, Lucas, Zelda, and Olimar are all characters that on the surface look like they have a lot of potential. But as the game becomes more advanced, projectile spamming gets worse. For example, it is rare that a high level player actually gets hit by Zelda's Side B, which was one of her main draws as a character intially. Additionally, each of these characters has a slower-than-normal grab, which is a disadvantage in this defensive game.
 * As for Lucas<Sheik, the projectile and grab things hold true, as well as a couple of other things against him: none of his aerials can kill at a reasonable percentage, nor can any of his tilts or specials. Really, his only kill options are his smashes, which are fairly predictable and thus avoidable. You basically have to screw up to die to lucas at under 150% --Wildfire393 (talk) 04:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know how many people know this, but the list is based entirely on numbers, no opinion (or so theysaid...). Anyway, since I'm already on a roll defending Luigi, do you see Bowser beating any character from the top, or even high, tier?  Luigi just has a better, more technical game.  Cheezperson  (speak to the big cheez)


 * Actually yes, I do see Bowser beating characters from the top/high tier (or at least doing better than Luigi), for the same reasons DK is in the High tier. Massive weight, huge range, huge killing power, it means he stands a chance against characters with large range and disjointed hitboxes, while Luigi basically just gets skewered. --Wildfire393 (talk) 20:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

WTF is this S*%#?!?!
Tool link lost to DDD and wario?????????BULLSHIT. Captain falcon is LAST?!?!BULLSHIT!!!! HOW is Ike so low??? He has INSANE power! He kills at like 30%, and has 2 super armor moves!

Ike sucks, that's all I have to say.

Is that all? DDD and Wario are much better than that. - Hatake91 (talk) 21:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with this list almost entirely. Pikachu, Lucas and Captain Falcon are my best characters and they are all lower tiers, Captain Falcon apparently being the worst character. Tiers are jokes, honestly. Dexington (talk) 23:10, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, to best describe this I shall use a Jack Sparrow quote,"Gentlemen I wash my hands of this whole weirdness."Man of falcon (talk) 00:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

No one in there right minds would use a lot of the Upper Tier characters. I've always been one who didn't pay attention to Tier Lists, but the only upper tier character I have seen anyone use was Snake. The rest used lower tier characters. I use Power Suit and Zero Suit regularly and I can take out any of the upper tier characters. This is a game where you should depend on your character's skills, and not what character everyone else says is good to use. User:Tim Nemec

You guys don't read do you? For one dexington yes those are your best. The Tier list post says clearly the list is not for determining who your best with, thats why not everyone is only using metaknight, because they are using characters that fit themselves best. And Timnemec everyone's taste is different besides more people use Metaknight than samus or Zero suit you just haven't seen them I guess. - Hatake91 (talk) 00:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I concur, the tier List is completely meaningless and does nothing to describe the potential for each character. Man of falcon (talk) 21:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Captain Falcon in a right placement...
Sorry, fanboys, but I had to say this: Captain Falcon DOESN'T WIN A SINGLE TOURNAMENT ANYMORE, DEAL WITH IT --Jigglypuff is God (talk) 03:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * He's awesome with any game with three or more people. Oh wait, tournaments. Bwahahahaha! Cafinator (talk) 04:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Captain falcon may not win many tourneys anymore but he sure as hell should be higher on the list than link, ganon, bowser, and jigglypuff.

Lol He actually has won the most tournaments out of the entire low tier( he won 1...more than the others :P) but that was it while the others ahead of him were in the top 3 multiple times but never won a single one - Hatake91 (talk) 21:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

All About Luigi
After skimming over the majority of this page, I've decided to make a subsection where we can talk about why Luigi needs to be bumbed up. I'm a believer that if you nag about it enough, someone has to listen. Here's some bullets, feel free to add some of your own. ZaxYo 22:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC) -Luigi's aerial game is fast, powerful, and perfect for comboing and edge guarding. -Luigi's low traction makes him great for spamming a sliding smash attack as opposed to his pretty bad running attack. -Luigi's fire punch, should not be overlooked as his best killing move, killing as low as 50%. Also noting that the neutral attack can lead into a fire punch with almost no DIing possibilities that i have found. -Luigi's down smash and side smash have impressive range and both come out very quickly, his down smash also occasionally hooks people back t words Luigi for comboing. -Luigi's up-b, down-b, and side-b all give him a variety of recovery methods which makes him unpredictable, as well as gets him a lot of distance. -Luigi's Luigi cyclone (down-B) combos perfectly into his aerials. It also has good range on it, and fairly low ending lag, meaning that you can start a combo from a distance (don't see Bowser doing that).

-Believe it or not, Luigi's Dair can spike, but only when the opponent is just above his knee. -Luigi's front-Smash can KO as early as around 70%, even heavies! Cheezperson (speak to the big cheez)

Luigi also has a lot of disadvantages, which should put him about where he is on the tier list. -Luigi's air speed is one of the worst in the game, meaning even though his aerials are good, you can't really ues them as an approach or you just eat a tilt/smash before you get to them. -Luigi's low traction makes approaching on the ground a poor choice, as again you will mostly just eat a tilt/smash before you reach them. His "slidiness" is a distinct disadvantage, as no action can be taken in sliding frames. -Luigi's firepunch is good if it hits, but if it misses, there is huge lag. If they shield or sidestep, you're eating whatever their strongest move is, which will likely kill. -Luigi's smashes are neither exceptionally quick nor exceptionally long-ranged. Particularly, his Fsmash is slow enough to be shielded/dodged/whatevered nearly every single time, and his downsmash is short-ranged enough to be difficult to land (boo no wavedash-downsmash approach). -Luigi's cyclone, like every single one of his approach options, can just be hit with a powerful smash or tilt, making it an ineffective approach. -Lots of dairs can spike. His is one of the most difficult to do so with. -Fsmash is hard to hit due to it not being that quick.
 * A good Luigi user wouldn't use aerials as approaches. Don't forget that he does have a projectile, which definitely boosts his approaching ability, but Luigi's the kind of character that waits for the opponent to approach.  You were right, unfortunately, in saying that Luigi isn't a great approacher, but the cyclone is still a decent option.  The low traction can actually be used in your favor, if you use a running Up-Smash, which, in my opinion, is one of the quickest smashes in the game.  Like most smashes, the front-Smash takes setting up.  It's a fact of the game, you have to wait for the right opportunity to KO someone.  It just takes a good defense (rolling and dodging around until the opponent messes up).  The one thing you really got me on is the spike.  I've only done it once (MetaKnight on Final Destination if anyone is curious), and I have video proof of it, for all you skeptics out there!  Cheezperson  (speak to the big cheez)


 * "Projectile Until they approach" is a strategy that's stopped working for characters with GOOD projectiles, such as Zelda, Wolf, and Pit. Luigi, conversely, has one of the absolute worst projectiles in the game (slow, low damage, pitiful range, no knockback, will clank against most character's ftilts). I'm not really arguing that Luigi lacks kill options; Nair, Dair (even non-spike), Fsmash, and Firepunch are all legitimate kill options depending on situation and opponent. What Luigi majorly lacks is a way to approach ANYONE with any sort of disjointed hitbox or even good range without simply eating whatever quick attack they choose to use. (Oh, and the comment you were replying to was by me, I just screwed up and forgot the tag). --Wildfire393 (talk) 18:34, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

This is why I don't prefer tiers
It starts a whole arguement. A lot of users have their own tiers. Just because your good with one character doesn't mean everybody is. And before somebody goes psycho on me and starts swearing uncontrollably at me because i have a tier on my user page, I would like to say that I don't care about tiers, I just made one for fun. YOu'll see that I basicly put who I play as in high tiers while every character I don't care about doesn't even have a proper place on my tier. Why do people get so intense when it comes to tiers, the SBR is just calculating their abilities and their tournemant results. If you're extremely good with a character, then you can win with them, just because they're low tier doesn't mean that that character is completely unplayable in tournemants. If you have enough skill with a character, you can win, it doesn't matter what tier they are. And before you start flaming me because I state in my user page that i don't go to tournemants, I apoligize for not knowing the exact properties of a tournament, I'm just stating my opinion, which is what forums are for.Oh, and I can't spell tournemant/tournament/whatever.Smorekingxg456 (talk) 22:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This list is just showing who is best on a simple, flat stage with no items and against only one person. Meta Knight doesn't work off of distraction in 3 player games, he IS the distraction. It's hard to edgeguard more than one person at a time. Besides, this is just an "overused character in tournaments" list. If everyone using the same character, of course that character will win. Besides, the only thing that matters is skill and mastery. Meta Knight and Snake are one of the easiest characters to master. And come on people. This is just a party game...Why aren't there Mario Party tournaments? Cafinator (talk) 22:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * kind of what i was getting at...Smorekingxg456 (talk) 23:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * tl;dr Cafinator (talk) 23:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Another good note: the game itself is not balanced around the same rules used in tournaments. Instead, it takes into account games with items, final smashes, stages other than the ones that are tournament legal (especially Final Destination), and up to 3 other opponents. I can guarantee that the tier list would look quite a bit different if it was just a random Brawl/Melee stage, 4 player FFA, with all items on at a medium rate of appearance. RogueMastermind
 * I always wondered, why is Final Destination considered a "fair" stage, it's perfect for camping, sometimes difficult to recover. And more often than not, people die because put into situations from which they can't recover.
 * I agree with the Mastermind, and I actually hate the way that tournaments are played. Is it fun to take out everything that the game is supposed to be about? Stages, items, especially final smashes, which this game seems to be based around, are the things that make Brawl what it is. Taking them away ruins the way it should be played. Dexington (talk) 19:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * (Ahem...)  CAFINATOR    Gentlemen...  20:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

TL;DR: There are two kinds of Brawl - Party Brawl, with 4 player FFA, All Stages, and Items, and Tournament Brawl. If you don't play Tournament Brawl, this list is meaningless to you, so you are meaningless to the list. --Wildfire393 (talk) 01:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Honestly, if this is the way you feel, ignore the tier list entirely. The tier list is DESIGNED to rank the characters in Unbiased (Tournament) play, not only by their potential but also by their strength against the current Metagame. Yes, the tier list would look a LOT different in Items/AllStages/4-for-All games. It would look like this: 1) Everybody. Because in that kind of game, who you play and even how well you play largely take a backseat to things like Random Item Spawn Screwage, Random Stage Spawn Screwage, Several Players Ganging Up on You Screwage, or Repeatedly Being Prevented from Comboing/Edgeguarding/Actually-Fighting-in-a-Balanced-Way By the Guy Who Keeps Vulturing You Screwage. You know, things that have 0 to do with how good you are or who you are playing as or against.

Well, game rules/preferences aside, my point is that of course the tier list isn't going to reflect everything; it reflects overall strength of all characters based on certain rules. The game isn't balanced around that set of rules that the tournament players prefer, ergo it won't reflect a balanced state. In a casual environment, which is closer to what the game is balanced around, you'll notice quickly that the players and their moves are more important than the characters they happen to be playing. I.E., skill overtakes match ups. That's the reason I don't agree with having just one tier list and judging everything around it.


 * This is not to say that every character is balanced, I'm certain we all know some characters just aren't as good as others. But perhaps creating seperate tier list(s) with a different set of game rules deserves consideration. Even something as innocuous as going from the same game rules and adding another player to each side (i.e., tournament doubles) would have a drastically different tier list. And of course there would be another very different one for the standard 4p FFA with all items on any random Brawl/Melee stage too. RogueMastermind


 * As I said, this tier list only applies to tournament rules. A Tournament doubles Tier list is possible, but odds are it'd be far too much work: every two-character team would have to be weighed versus every other two-member team. That'd be 1296 possible tier placements, and each one would require 1295 comparisions, for a total of over a Million matchups to consider. And as I said about 4-for-all w/ items and all stages, character choice is irrelevant due to far too many factors outside of any player's control, and far too many factors outside of each individual players' control. The tier list is literally 1) Everybody, and the winner of the match might as well be decided by everyone roling a D20 and the highest roll wins. Skill does not overtake matchups, as there are far too many random factors. Normally, with evenly matched characters, the better player will win 100% of the time. With Items and awful stages, it's probably closer to 55% to 60%, unless the skill gaps is HUGE.

Yes, the game was not balanced for torunament play. This is a de facto argument for the fact that this tier list HAS to exist. You're welcome to create your own tier list for your own rules or even your own playgroup/metagame. That is not what this is. This is very specifically the tier list for tournament rules and the professional-level tournament metagame. Any discussion that is NOT about this is 100% irrelevant to the topic, and thus has no place in this thread. --Wildfire393 (talk) 02:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I know that the tier list exists, I can live with that, I'm just saying how some people go psycho because their main isn't top tier. I do ignore the tier list, I don't go to tournaments, I don't care about tiers. I never actually sated I don't directly like tiers, I said that I don't like how people go completely psycho when their character isn't top tier. Smorekingxg456 (talk) 14:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

so?
I really think you guys and girls are going to overboard over how you are better at some low ranking person then another, especially the swearer. I am best with sonic, i stink with game and watch, and I rock with pokemon trainer, but i'm not complaining.Solar flute (talk)

If there's still debate about the existence of tiers
Then hopefully this will help turn a couple of you to our side. Semicolon (talk) 01:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Extreme TL;DR.  CAFINATOR    Gentlemen...  14:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If that is tl;dr, I pity you. --Sky (t · c · w) 16:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure that he was talking about the link, which i agree was tl;drSmorekingxg456 (talk) 17:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If people would actually read it then the QQness would stop. And don't change your font color to white, it's disruptive. --Shadowcrest  17:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I just read it, and most of that stuff has been said by various people before. That was more like a collection of arguments. I agree with that. Tiers exist, do I have to agree with them? No. Do I have to care about tiers? No. I don't go to tournaments, so I could care less about tiers. (I think I just started to argue with myself . L O O K, DISTRACTION)Smorekingxg456 (talk) 17:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If you don't care about Tiers, but you acknowledge their excistance, why are you here? Just to annoy people? ZaxYo (talk) 17:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * NOW you're learning!  CAFINATOR    Gentlemen...  20:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I said that I don't care about tiers, I just don't like it when people get upset because their main isn't top tier. I said that if you have enough skill, you can win with anyone. Tiers are based off of tournament wins and abilities, not necessarily skill. I know people are going to flame me for repeating the obvious, but I'm just saying when people freak because their main isn't top tier. So, as Johnny Storm(the human torch) would say,  FLAME ON! Smorekingxg456 (talk) 22:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey guys. I don't have a lot of activity here, and I am really just a casual Brawl player, but shouldn't, in theory, Mario be in the center of the list? I always thought he was supposed to be the perfectly rounded guy. Maybe not? LeNoir (talk) 19:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is, when almost every character in the game has multiple "Exceptional" aspects, being "average" in every aspect is not a good thing. The other thing is, despite being toted as "All-Around Average", many of his qualities are below average. The "Average" KO percent is around 120%. Mario has trouble killing under 150%. The "Average" recovery is really actually very superb. Mario's is probably the fourth or fifth worst in the game (after like, Link, Wolf, and maybe Ivysaur and Olimar). Most characters with projectiles have a good one. Mario's is one of the worst (after like, Kirby's Final Cutter and Luigi's Fireballs). And with all of his other stats being "average", he doesn't have anything to make up for it. Compare to a character like Sheik, who made Mid tier. Sheik has below-average killing power but has a good projectile, good overall speed, a Brawl-Average recovery, and one of the better combo potentials in the game. With no compensating factors, Mario's weaknesses are just too much. --Wildfire393 (talk) 21:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Everyone needs to see this
Everyone in the smash community needs to see | this list. It was made by Gamespot user xxpack09. He combined the SBR tier list with that of another Gamespot user: Silverflash-x. I believe that this is the best tier list I have ever seen, give or take a few things. According to xxpack09, all credit goes to Silverflash-x and the SBR. Cheezperson (talk) 03:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * And what makes this tier list any more legit than any other tier list that someone just made up. I give the Back Room one my vote simply because it's the back room, not some random guy.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 03:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I dunno, maybe it's just me. Everyone there seems to think that it's the best thing since sliced bread.  I tweaked it a little bit on my page, so go have a look and see what you think!  Cheezperson (talk) 04:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Eh, not a fan. There are like two or three "major" changes, and they are all things I very much disagree with (Olimar being high instead of Mid, Sheik being low instead of mid, Bowser being Low instead of Mid). I'd think the SBR has more knowledge on the subject than "Some random Gamespot User". I mean, otherwise the way to compile the tier list would be to take EVERYONE's tier list thoughts and average them. And that's certainly not correct. --Wildfire393 (talk) 23:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I probably should have explained more on the "random guy" tier list. It's gone through about ten different versions, one coming out every month or so.  During that time, users debate the placements, and believe me, they are very heated (maybe even more than those here).  Ultimately, the creator makes the call, but it is still very professional, in my opinion.  A thing I like about that one is that it's obvious if someone who wants to see one character move up has no idea what they're talking about.  On the other hand, (heres an example) two users (who were apparently quite respected there) did this HUGE research thing to appeal for Ike moving ahead of Mario on one of the older versions.  I'm talking pages of just them, praising Ike, and dissing Mario.  They got their way, but only because they knew what they were talking about.  I think the list is credible (the similar version on my page is a little more opinionated).  Cheezperson (talk) 23:57, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

To those who are whining that the tier list is wrong
Do you really think the SBR was likely to get every single character placed exactly as you want them on the first draft? Give the SBR a break. They'll revise the tier list. I think there are mistakes, but I'm not going crazy over something I think is wrong. - Pokegamer

No one is going that crazy...this list is obviously rushed and incorrect. We were just expressing our opinions. --Oxico (talk) 00:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)