Forum:The Tier List, version 3

Pikamander will prolly add the tier list once it is released on June 5th. But while we're waiting for that day to arrive, let's discuss what we can expect from the SBR's third Brawl tier list. What are your thoughts? Mine are that the last place honor will go to a new character since Ally's great performance with Falcon at APEX, and I'd also like to see Dedede move down, but that prolly won't happen. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 18:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

From what I have read, Ganondorf is likely to take Falcon's spot. Y462 (T • C • E ) 20:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Makes sense, especially when you consider that Ganon is the only character in the game with a 0:100 match-up. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 20:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The sad part is he is my other main. He should at least have a 1:99.  Y462 (T • C  • E ) 21:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, no match-up is completely impossible, which is what 0:100 illustrates. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 01:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually a 0:100 means that for every 1000 Brawls, Ganondorf wins fewer than five times on average, meaning that his win percentage is <0.5%. Matchups are all* given to 0 decimal places, so a win percentage of <0.5% against a particular character is rounded to 0% when taken to 0 decimal places. Therefore, a 100:0 matchup doesn't mean it's impossible for Ganondorf to win, it just means that on average he wins no more than four times per thousand Brawls.
 * * (There are some matchups that aren't to 0 decimal places, but there are only thirteen of them and they're either 62.5:37.5, 52.5:47.5 or 42.5:57.5, which correspond to average win ratios of 5:3, 21:19 and 17:23 respectively, but none of them even begin to approach a win ratio of 1:249, which is the win ratio for the example given above in which Ganondorf wins only four Brawls per thousand.)
 * I am  Penguin  of  Death  , and I love stats. 16:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * lol Ganon has a 5-95 matchup =D thats the lowest it goes, because nothings so unwinnable its 0:100 JtM =^&#93; (talk) 22:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You do know that o.5%, by laws of maths, gets rounded up to 1%?
 * Firstly, sign your comments using ~ . Secondly, you do know what "<" means, right? Just in case you don't, it means "less than". A win percentage of exactly 0.5% against a particular character is rounded to 1% when taken to 0 decimal places, but anything less than 0.5% gets rounded to 0%. In other words, a win percentage of <0.5% against a particular character is rounded down to 0% when taken to 0 decimal places, which is what I said. Therefore, fallacy not detected.  Penguin  of  Maths   09:38, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh I've forgotten. For this tier list, I don't expect much changes. But I'd like to see Lucas moving up ^^ Metalink187 (talk) 12:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I added the list to the top of the page on June 5, just like GalaxiaD predicted. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 16:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Marth moved down, not happy... :( Wario is overrated to me. Metalink187 (talk) 16:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the third best? Since when? And how did Sonic and PT shoot up? Aside from that, I'm glad that Fox surpassed Wolf and DDD moved down. And Falcon's not worst anymore! -  GalaxiaD  Talk 19:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wario can avoid "combos" due to his floatiness, and he's got some decent moves. And a bike. PT users are developing strategies for each Pokemon, so they no longer need to depend on one of the pokemon. Sonic I expected to move up, but not by eight. DDD is heavy, so he can get raped by some characters, and Ganon still beats Falcon IMO. Smoreking (T)  (c)  18:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

As expeted, Ganon dropped and Jigglypuff rose. I am happy Jigglypuff rose while sad Ganon dropped again. Both of my mains are still bottom tier. Y462 (T • C • E ) 20:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I just wish that Link'd go up, Ike'd go up, Ness'd go up, Jigglpuff would take Ganon's place, and Ganon'd overtake Falcon again. ''' Ike's Best Buddy
 * Unfortunately, as long as Marth (and whoever else) has that infinite chaingrab on Ness and Lucas, I doubt either one of 'em will go much anywhere else. Jigglypuff's, got a decent enough game to warrant not being bottom, she deserves that spot.  Ganondorf isn't bottom, though.  I personally think it's Link.  He has no unique qualities that sets him apart from the bunch (this is mainly Toon Link's fault, as TL does pretty much everything better than Link does).  He's got one of the, if not the, worst recovery in the game as well as a poor ground game and a meh aerial game.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 16:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Jigglypuff also hard counters Diddy Kong, so that might help getting out of bottom tier. She also goes even with MK and possibly soft-counters Falco.  It's probably these guys that keep Jigglypuff bottom tier.  Y462 (T • C  • E ) 17:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was wanting Sonic to go up from the second tier list to the third, but I didn't expect him to shoot up. Kinda disappointed that Link went down that low. I'm surprised that Wario's higher than Falco. Unknown the   Hedgehog  20:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wario-Floaty, DACUS, bike, chomp can break combos, recovery, etc. Smoreking (T)  (c)  20:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Wario got a great place, I believe in the future he will be 2nd because now people know Wario is an amazingly good character. So low place as 8th was because many people thinks he's disgusting (not me). Get Snake's place in the next tier list! Wario is less vulnerable to counter picks. Firewario (talk) 20:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Meta Knight and Snake aren't gonna be moving for a while. Snake has amazing range and physical attacks. With proper timing, he can get a f-tilt lock, and with proper reading of his opponent, he can D-throw chain them. Not to mention his AAA combo rape, Utilt rape, and forward tilt second hit strength. His DACUS goes way further than Wario's, and launches a projectile at the end, allowing for an amazing approach. He also has an amazing recovery with his bomb jumps, and he's got a bunch of projectiles. Snake's strong, and he has range and projectiles. Smoreking (T)  (c)  21:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Snake's recovery is bad IMO, he is really open for spikes or Wario's Chomp. Wario's recovery is much better. His ground game is really good, but his air game is terrible, his aerials have a lot of lag, that a terrible weakness, that's why he hates stages like Rainbow Cruise and Norfair. Snake's DACUS should only be used to surprise or get to the edge quickly when the opponent is offstage. When we get a really good Wario I believe he'll be 2nd. Firewario (talk) 21:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * He can airdodge the spikes or use a Bair or Uair on the opponent before they hit him, and can bomb jump to regain cypher. Snake's DACUS can be used in most situations, wether it be escaping, approaching, or just plain moving. There are no stages that are completely aerial, so he can land, pull out a grenade or some sort of projectile, then proceed into the air. His Uair and Bair are both quick and strong, his Fair is a meteor smash, and if it doesn't, it's still a decent attack. I'll agree that his Dair isn't that good, but his Nair can be really strong if he hits with the final attack, and the other ones can juggle in a minor way, and deal damage. Smoreking (T)  (c)  21:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

While Snake is below he IS vulnerable to spikes. If he air dodge, he'll self destruct before the C4 is planted. Clearly that 2 stages forces him to use his laggy aerials. The stages where he isn't forced to use his aerials are much better. See many tourney matches to count how many times he got spiked when offstage. End of this discussion about Snake's weaknesses. Firewario (talk) 21:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude, have you seen Snake's tourney results when compared to anyone else's (except MK)? There's a reason he had his own tier last time.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 03:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Differences
Here are the differences between version two and three.
 * 0 Meta Knight
 * 0 Snake
 * +5 Wario
 * -1 Falco
 * +2 Diddy Kong
 * -2 King Dedede
 * -1 Marth
 * -3 Mr. Game & Watch
 * +3 Pikachu
 * +1 Olimar
 * +4 Ice Climbers
 * -3 R.O.B.
 * 0 Kirby
 * -4 Lucario
 * +1 Zero Suit Samus
 * +1 Toon Link
 * +1 Pit
 * -4 Donkey Kong
 * 0 Peach
 * +1 Luigi
 * +3 Fox
 * -2 Wolf
 * +8 Sonic
 * +1 Sheik
 * -2 Bowser
 * -4 Zelda
 * +5 Pokémon Trainer
 * -2 Ike
 * -1 Lucas
 * -3 Mario
 * -2 Ness
 * +1 Yoshi
 * -3 Samus
 * +1 Jigglypuff
 * +2 Captain Falcon
 * -2 Link
 * -1 Ganondorf


 * Greatest Rise = Sonic +8
 * Greatest Fall = Lucario, Donkey Kong, and Zelda -4 Unknown  the   Hedgehog  20:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Commentary
I'm likely to make another one (see link on my page), but here's my quick takes:
 * The list itself: Glad to see MK and Snake are back in to regular tiers.
 * Lucas: I still don't like him being that low.
 * Sheik: Ahead of Zelda? Didn't see that coming.  I kinda agree with it, I guess.
 * Wario: Another surprise. I had a feeling he'd move up, but not that far.  I disagree with him being ahead of G&W, Falco, and Dedede.
 * Toon Link moved up!!!
 * Biggest surprise: WTF@SONIC?!? Anyone who saw that coming needs to lay off the drugs.  I'd like to hear an explanation on that one for sure.

That's all for now. Expect an actual page on it later on my page.  Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 22:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, Lucas is my best character. Considerable versatility, obscenely potent smash attacks, and the fact that he totes a tether grab. But he's ranked at E. To be honest, the entire tier system is a bit of a crock. Any character can beat any other depending on circumstances, skill, luck, and the style of the player using it, to say that one character is inferior to any other is foolish at best. Who decides this anyway? The game is meant to be enjoyed and played for entertainment, not to stick it to people and mock their choices in style. Exdeath64 (talk) 05:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Why is Captain Falcon still at the bottom? He is my main. Also, when I pit CPU vs CPU, Captain Falcon beat Meta Knight. He is not a bottom tier character. DRTJR (talk) 12:11, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Firstly, please sign your comments with nothing more than ~ . You do not need to put your username first - it will automatically fill that in for you when you use ~ . Secondly, Captain Falcon is a bottom tier character because smashers who main Captain Falcon very rarely win tournaments. The matchup between Meta Knight and Captain Falcon is 20:80 in Meta Knight's favour - this means that for every 5 matches played between two players of identical skill on a neutral stage with no items, Meta Knight is expected to win 4 times, and Captain Falcon is expected to win 1 time. This does not mean that Captain Falcon cannot beat Meta Knight, just that Meta Knight is much more likely to win. If you pit a Captain Falcon CPU vs a Meta Knight CPU of the same level on a neutral stage with no items, Captain Falcon can still win, and, given that he's expected to win 1 in every 5 matches, it's not very surprising when he does win. I hope that clears everything up.  Penguin  of  Death   13:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My Captain Falcon must be intelligent because Falcon on my CPU beats meta knight 3/2 and never loses to Snake almost the same with Ganondorf DRTJR (talk) 14:29, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * CPU's prove nothing, kid. Watch the pros fight on YouTube instead. It's a lot more exciting and fulfilling. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 17:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wrong, scrub. Fighting low level CPUs is actually one of the best methods of training. Watching and learning from videos is a nice incentive, but actions speak louder than visuals.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  20:23, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Falcon lacks a safe approach, resulting in terrible matchups. He has no advantage matchup at all and top tier beat Captain Falcon so if people know how to stop Captain Falcon's approaches, then he is a terrible character just like Ganondorf. Firewario (talk) 19:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If I could steer the topic back to DRTJR's second comment: "My Captain Falcon must be intelligent". That's entirely possible. If you play as Captain Falcon far more than you play as Meta Knight, due to the fact that the CPUs in Brawl can learn strategies from human players, Captain Falcon will have improved more than Meta Knight, so Captain Falcon may become more likely to win. When training, level 9 CPUs are useful, but even they aren't good enough to be used to determine tier placements. Tiers are determined by rankings in tournaments between human players. It doesn't matter if CPU players can beat each other, as the CPUs are not always of exactly the same skill even if they're the same level.  Penguin  of  Death   21:24, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's what I think: CPUs are not as good as pros, that much is plainly obvious. That doesn't mean that they're worthless in training (level 5 CPUs are supposed to be the best training option, or something like that), but a CPU should never beat an experienced player.  Now I don't know if DRTJR was talking about CPU vs. CPU or himself vs. CPU, so I can't draw much of anything from what he said.  If it was the player who loses most of the time, then (I hate to sound mean) it's not that the CPU is good, but rather that you suck.  Or are just inexperienced.  CPU vs. CPU is a little different because they were programmed to be evenly matched with each other.  They don't know any AT's or elaborate combos (most of the time), so to me it's essentially random who wins and loses a CPU vs CPU fight.  I have no opinion on  the whole "CPU learns strategies" argument (I really can't come to a conclusion over who is right), but I do know for sure that when you start the game for the first time, all CPUs are evenly matched. Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 21:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, but it's not like we can set the CPU to pro-level that easily. And it's not like we can call one up and play them whenever we feel like it. Right, they aren't capable of any ATs, but the point is for you to practice ATs on them.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  21:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Tbh just go to the AiB ladder and get owned and learn what they did. Smoreking (T)  (c)  23:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I am happy to have sparked an intelligent debate. DRTJR (talk) 01:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Wario isn't that bad, people...
You guys can throw whatever disadvantage Wario has at us (me and FireWario, assuming he's helping) and we will counter it with something to get by that flaw. At TourneyPlay, M2K fought FICTION and FICTION beat him, 3-1 iirc. The best MK and the best Wario fighting and the Wario winning is excellent. Wario deserves his spot in 3rd place. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 15:25, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * MK and Snake are still better. Smoreking (T)  (c)  15:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well duh. I'm just saying that he deserves his place in third. MK vs. Wario is 50:50, though. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 15:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you give me a link to a good Wario video? I've never seen a decent Wario in action.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 16:48, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * here JtM =^&#93; (talk) 16:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Very nice! I'm surprised Fiction only used DACUS once, though.  I thought it was Wario's best ground option.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 00:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wario doesnt even need his ground game to be good. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 22:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not that he doesn't deserve the spot, I just never would've thought he'd make third. 5th, maybe, but still...then again, if it can take out M2K, by all means, give him 3rd. Shade 487  z  02:30, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Who the hell said Wario was bad?  Blue  Ninjakoopa  19:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 2 or 3 sections up JtM =^&#93; (talk) 22:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Wario is a fat man that can fly. That's how ridiculously good he is. In my opinion, he's one of the best characters in the game and definitely deserves his place in the tier list.
 * His aerial mobility is incredible. He moves faster in the air than on the ground, and I think he's easier to maneuver than Yoshi or Jigglypuff (the only two characters who surpass Wario in terms of horizontal air movement); Yoshi's jumping is too obnoxious, and Jigglypuff is too light and floaty. Wario is a heavy-weight (and therefore hard to kill), yet in the air he displays magnificent grace, gliding through the air with an ease that belies his obesity.
 * Wario can kill easily too. He probably has the best killing potential in the game; he can KO a character as low as 50% with his half-charged waft, which also comes out fast and can catch an opponent unawares (most people expect the fully-charged fart). His Uair is is also quick and powerful, with high priority and a hitbox that covers nearly his whole body. And his forward smash is broken; it's strong, fast, and has SA frames! Not to mention that he can gimp pretty well too.
 * There's so much more about Wario that makes him such an awesome character: his amazing recovery; the variety of approaches in his diposal; his unpredictability; his great punishing abilities; his aerial grab (Chomp); his grab game in general; his ability to avoid grabs (vulnerability to grab-releases is one of his few weaknesses)... but then I'd have to type out several pages about them. He's so underrated. More people need to play as him. I mean, the only good Warios are Fiction and... Reflex, I think? And look at all the people who play Metaknight. 166.61.238.40 17:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually his problem is killing power his side smash wont kill most characters until about 80%.His fart has too little range for me I only use it fully charged

Please sign your comment. And range isn't a problem for Wario because his aerial mobility is amazing and he is unpredictable anyway, if you have as high skill as me you wouldn't say such things.Firewario (talk) 14:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I have absolutely no idea how to sign it like u so i dont do it.And I challenge u to brawl.Ben Sedai (talk) 11:48, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just put ~ after your post to sign your comments.  Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 01:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I think wario is middle tier at best. Keep in mind that these are only opinions people, and in my opinion wario is not very good. --Popie (talk) 13:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I think falco Is ```WAY``` to High, Toon link still is low, Captain Falcon is way too Low, same with Ganondorf, Marth should Take Falco's Spot and Mario should take Ganondorf's current Spot DRTJR (talk) 14:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree and sonic is also WAY too high and rose way too fast to be natural, by the way, how many times is he likely to win per Tournament? 4DJONG (talk)

The reason why sonic rose that quickly is that low tiers can rise and fall that quickly. Sonic won or got high places in many tournaments. Just look at the Texas power rankings for example or Malcolm. He was underrused when the game came out. I don't expect him to gain another 6 ranks again. If anything I guess for him to gain 2. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 15:08, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Bowser
Why is he so high? He counters no one except for Ganon and CF. Also, he's never used in touraments according to SWF. Even Jiggly has better matchups. 98.117.158.220 01:46, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * To answer, outside of the forums. He does have bad matchups...but he also has some moderately good ones due to a really good grab release. Jigglypuff can't kill.--KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 18:34, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * Jiggly has several KO moves: Down special, Uair, dair, standard special, and forward smash. Jiggly has way better matchups. If fact, she counters him. 98.117.158.220 20:25, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * None of these moves have enough range and it is very difficult to combo into any of them to to low hitstun. Combine with this that Jigglypuff is incredibly light and has bad range and Jigglypuff will die quickly and can't kill well. Ill go through each of the moves:

Down special: very difficult to combo into outside of down air, but at these percents, Jigglypuff can't usually kill if someone has good DI. Leaves jigglypuff wide open if there is a miss usually to death if Jigglypuff isn't below 30 damage Up air: Bad range, low power, low priority. light set ups. Standard special: Just block or if you are at low percents, you can actually be hit by it and hit jigglypuff with a move. Loses to all projectiles. No setups Forward Smash: Horrible range, low priority for a smash move. Nothing to set up into it If you do not know, Jigglypuff's main kill moves in Brawl are Forward Air and DACUS into up smash. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 17:13, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, Jiggly counters bowser, making him even worse. So, again, why is bowser so high? 98.117.158.220 23:15, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * It does not matter if Jigglypuff counters Bowser. I do not believe you understand what makes a tier list. Lets say there was a character in brawl that countered Metaknight but had a bad matchup vs everyone else. he would still be a lower tier than Metaknight because of his other bad matchups (That character would be most likely in Mid tier). it is matchups overall and the metagame of the characters overall that influence tier lists. Single matchups usually barely effect the tier list unless it is against a top/high character. Neither Bowser or Jigglypuff are high tier. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 17:52, December 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I was not clear enough. Bowser has worse matchups than Jiggly. In fact, he has worse matchups than even link. Why is Bowser any higher than bottom tier? 98.117.158.220 01:44, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * To answer that, its due to having a good grab release. Bowser, even though similarly to the other low/bottom/mid tiers has bad results, he still has stuff going for him. Jigglypuff cannot KO. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 20:49, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes she can. How about this? I'll list all he KO moves for you: dair, uair, wall of pain, rest, rollout, and fsmash. Happy? Besides, I was just using Jiggly as an example. What about Ike? Ness? Mario? How are they worse than Bowser. And in your next reply if you only say stuff about Jiggly then I'll deduce that's your only argument. 98.117.158.220 20:54, December 27, 2009 (UTC)